Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I think combining high attack, damage and HP in one unit is a bad idea. The key nerf they received wasn't the strength drop but the 4 point drop in attack skill. I think that was crucial in order to give anti-SC thugs a chance against them.

I support the drop in strength as well, but really they still do a lot of damage. And I can't think of any SC with more HP. And since they don't have undead/demon/magic being tags you can't use damage multiplying weapons against them the way you can most SCs.

Sure, they aren't great operating solo since they have no built-in resistances or magic to buff with. But used in conjunction with an army, or just some mages to buff them, I think they can take out SCs and anti-SC thugs handily and handle troops fairly effectively as well.

OTOH, I wouldn't have a problem with giving them things like CR 50 or poor amphibian but, especially in the latter case, I don't think llamabeast likes the idea thematically.

Here's the thing. You shouldn't be able to (easily) kill them with thugs. That's the wrong counter. They should be the undisputed kings of straight-up melee combat.

Vulnerabilities that (should) work:
Dropping a meteor on them (GftH)
soul slay, enslave mind, charm, etc...
Insufficient gear slots - basically, they can't achieve immunity to every element. So if they go with FR100 and CR100, hit them with lightning or poison.

So the appropriate nerf is to their MR if a nerf is necessary, say down to 15 or 16 base. Like with most vulnerabilities, gear can help, but they will be limited in just how high that MR can get, and are giving up other gear options to load up on MR gear.

Absolutely no on CR.

Absolutely yes on poor amphibian. I don't understand why they didn't have it to start with.

That said, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they are actually overpowered. Hell, I'm doubtful they could even take an army by themself. Too many vulnerabilities. I mean, yeah, if you take a bunch of Pillar of Fire spamming mages against an FR100 grendelkin as your mage support you deserve what you get. But if you bring the right magic attacks to the battlefield, the grendelkin is going to die to concerted magic barrage. Hell, a Grendelkin without CR100 is going to die horribly to *numbness* spam if there's an army to follow it up. Or rigor mortis + grip of winter vs. a skelly spam army. Etc...

Basically, the 'kills absolutely any thug or SC it runs into, but dies horribly to armies' is an absolutely essential niche, because it forces people to continue to field armies. Making it vulnerable to thugs is entirely the wrong design decision.

[Valerius]

Oh, I don't think they're easy to kill with thugs even with the nerf they received. The strength nerf doesn't matter in this situation since if they hit most thugs will die anyway. The -4 to attack they received gives the thug(s) a chance - but I think that usually they'll die anyway since without a damage multiplying weapon they won't be able to inflict enough damage before the grendelkin connects.

We disagree on whether thugs should have a chance against them. I think they should because by that stage of the game all nations can either recruit or summon some kind of thug - but not all nations can field the S magic needed for most of your suggestions. BTW, I'd rather not nerf their MR since that effectively is just a boost to S nations when they face grendelkin.

As far as grendelkin operating solo, I agree with you that they can't really achieve immunity to everthing and also have decent MR, luck and reinvig. But I think this is a good thing and that they shouldn't be able to do that when operating in a solo capacity.

Where I think they really shine (and what I see as their main purpose) is in providing muscle for armies. In that situation you can equip them with 50% resist gear and have your mages boost them to 100%.

I want mention one other notable thing about them - darkvision 75. Unlike most non-undead/demon SCs they won't be crippled by darkness.

All in all, I think the nerf to grendelkin was reasonable and that they will continue to be used. If it turns out they are being recruited less I think a bit of a pricing adjustment would fix that.