Crossbows vs. Longbows

[Lizardo]

Only rejoined children.

It's relevant if the game distinguishes things like crossbows, short bows and longbows. Might be nice if the distinctions had some basis in the actual products.

The vine effect occurs on impact I assume thus it is irrelevant to aerodynamics or lack there of.

Crossbows really aren't that great except that you can have them cocked and ready and they are easy to aim and fire. They're also a lot easier to make than a good bow.

Mods could always lock the topic if it serves no useful purpose.

[HoneyBadger]

Crossbows aren't great...compared to a Glock 9, AK, or assault shotgun. Compared to a 14th century hand-cannon, they're spiffy.

They're still great for hunting, superior in some ways to guns. Infact, a lot of states only allow crossbow-hunting for disabled hunters who can't easily use a gun.

Matchlocks, wheel-locks, and their predecessors had the unhappy tendancy to messily explode in the hands of their intended firers, among their many drawbacks. It was great for knights and nobles to give them to peasants (peasants are made for sucking) and then ride off to fight from horseback, because there was no way in hell a peasant could afford to mass-produce quality guns or quality powder, back then. Coupled with their inaccuracy, and the need for highly trained, and hideously expensive, special warhorses (which themselves took decades and decades to develope) to merge guns with calvalry (the only way low class gunfighters could hope to outmaneuvar landed chivalry on the battlefield), guns were reasonably safe to put in the hands of the common mass.

If crossbows had recieved the same level of technological attention guns have for centuries, it's reasonable to suppose they'd operate at a much, much higher level than they currently do--and possibly much closer to the guns we have today.

At the time gunpowder became weaponized, crossbows and ballistae were the most advanced ranged weapons on the battlefield (the hand version of the trebuchet-pretty much the omega catapult-was basically a sling, afterall...). A seige arbalest could be fired accurately, by a single soldier with modest training, at up to 900 meters, every 30 seconds, and deliver 5000 pounds of force. That's not nothing. Consider that that could be done from behind a large, heavy shield, and that crossbows could atleast be fired from a horse, without much special training from the horse. Crossbows and ballistae could also be stacked together, creating 2 and 3 shot versions, and repeating crossbow technology had existed for centuries before guns were ever invented.

The problem with crossbows was that they were too dangerous, and too easily produced and employed.

[RadicalTurnip]

Except crossbows aren't made of cherry.

And their cross-section is a dodecahedron, so therefore they are inferior weapons.

[Squirrelloid]

honeybadger, i don't know where you're getting your information, but so much of it is flat out wrong that i don't know where to start.

Example: your figures for speed and power of an arbalest come from an uncited assertion on wikipedia. In particular, i highly doubt the 2/min rate of *accurate* fire listed. You might be able to winch and fire 2/min without aiming at all. But those 5k lbs of force have to be cranked into the arbalest by the operator, and that takes time. (You don't get anything out that you don't put in). And there is open scepticism of 5k lbs of force as an accurate number on the talk page. (Indeed, the page is basically uncited since one of the two citations has absolutely nothing to do with any material actually on the page, and the other may or may not, but without being specifically referenced to a statement there's no way to know).

I will point out that it was firearms which forced the increasing thickness of combat armor in the late medieval period until armored knights became completely untenable.

I will point out that the french used crossbows/arbalests (there's no difference in medieval useage) because they were afraid to let peasants train with longbows, and thus their peasants *couldn't* use longbows in any military capacity. (the english, otoh, required peasants to train with the bow for most of the medieval period, and thus had a corp of highly trained bowmen available).

And by the time there were steel-bowed crossbows (c. 14th century), the cannon had already become state-of-the-art in medieval siege warfare.

And by the time you have either matchlocks or wheellocks, crossbows were museum pieces at best.

[HoneyBadger]

It was a Wikipedia reference (I like it because it's easy for everyone online to follow, much more easily referenced than a lot of out of print texts, and while it may not be perfectly accurate, it's accurate enough for a game), but I'd like to point out that I actually own a crossbow, that I'm very familiar with their use, and traditional construction-including the steel versions-
that I've spent over 3 decades studying the history of arms and armour, and that I grew up around such. My father professionally appraised swords for auction-houses, for years, and my family has an extensive collection of books on the subject, and on medieval weaponry, in general.

You're welcome to argue the point, but 2 accurate shots a minute is quite doable, even with a heavy crossbow, using a common windlass, provided you have enough upper body strength, and training.
30 seconds may not seem like much, but it becomes quite a lot of time, when someone's threatening your family with an axe.

[MachingunJoeTurbo]

I've probably forgotten and remembered Dominions 3 more than any game ever. Since Elemental War of Magic seems to be a bust so far I've been looking back at the Dom and was surprised that I actually had an account, the topic was still here and on top, and people have over the months finally understood the things I was talking about once they got over their butthurt.

[Eximius Sus]

I was trying to figure out what you were talking about and here it is.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...4&postcount=53

Glad you are back to provide clarity on this issue. It's clearly muddled up with fanciful dreams and a lack of reality.

[Fantomen]

Oh so glad you are back, we missed your unequaled insight in the world of aerodynamics!

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by MachingunJoeTurbo

I've probably forgotten and remembered Dominions 3 more than any game ever. Since Elemental War of Magic seems to be a bust so far I've been looking back at the Dom and was surprised that I actually had an account, the topic was still here and on top, and people have over the months finally understood the things I was talking about once they got over their butthurt.

Although the topic had faded into obscurity for quite some time, until one forum troll revived it to embarrass poor lingchih. Sigh.

[MachingunJoeTurbo]

How is it embarrassing? This is a wonderful thread. Afterall, I posted in it.

Also it probably brought in at least few extra customers because it shows up on the front page of google when you search the topic title.