Merkava.

[kevineduguay1]

DRG,

In the site posted on page one there is a section on the history of the Merkava. The propaganda issue is valid to an extent. When the MkI was first shown to the public 10 troops came out the back and the Israelis bragged about their tanks versitility. A short while later they said it could not carry troops. After 2006 and the conflict in Lebanon they again admitted thet troops could be caried. This back and forth and the Israelis being in an almost constant state of war makes research on the Merkava difficult at best. Much of the interior of the Merkava is still classified.

On the Tanknet website under Tank videos there is a 38 to 40 second video taken by a member of the inside of a old Merkava tank. It's not of great quality. When he gets to the rear of the vehicle you can plainly see 12 empty main gun ammo containers lining the rear compartment. They are stacked 2 deep and 3 high on each side of the hull. The man with the camers has no trouble moving between the stacked ammo boxes to exit the rear door of the vehicle.

This video can be found on Tanknet in the AFV forums under tank videos. It's in the first post on page 2. posted by Zakk.

Dial up stinks. I had it for the longest time and it realy limits your options.

I'm glad to hear that the AI works ok with this option in play. I only tried it in human played mode.

[kevineduguay1]

RERomine,

Thanks for at least reading the website.

Firstly doctrine changes by nessesity or a shift in tactical thought. If it did not the US would never have made the Stryker.

If not ment to carry troops or if not doctrine why the sniper port in the read door of some Merkavas? This feature will be on all Namer HAPCs.

The ammo is no longer packed in crates as shown in the above thumb-nail. They all come in their own container. Could this allow the ammo load to be shifted from the rear compartment to areas around or under the turret basket? Just enough to carry 50 rounds and 8 troops? Remember 10 rounds are already in the turret in the automatic magazine on MkIV. What about the article that mentions a possible 105mm ammo load of 92 rounds if no troops are carried or about 80 rounds of 120mm? Look up and then explain the Merkava "Tankbulance". 3 stretcher cases, 3 man medical team, life support and enough gear to perform emergency operations. Yet it can still with all this aboard fight like a tank. This version is said to have a reduced ammo load for the main gun but it still looks like anyother Merkava and hits just as hard.

The Namer is a very roomy vehicle but as you said only has 8 passenger/troop seats. The Namer is set to replace most if not all other APCs now in inventory with the IDF. It now carries 3 weapons if you count the Soltam 60mm mortar. The 50cal mounted on the R-OWS can be swaped out for a Mk19 AGL. In the near future the IFV varriant may mount a 30mm Bushmaster, coax 7.62 MG and a twin Spike ATGM launch tube mounted on a R-OWS. While the weapon will not protrude in any way into the troop compartment much of that extra space seen now will be used up to store the larger 30mm rounds and extra Spike missiles.

Mobhack,

I posted the question on Tanknet in the AFV forums. Never recived a notification from them. I just checked and was able to post today. Lets see what happens.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

Firstly doctrine changes by nessesity or a shift in tactical thought. If it did not the US would never have made the Stryker.

Agreed, but has it happened with the Merkava beyond ad-hoc. Versions of the Merkava have been around for roughly 36 years. Has carrying troops in the Merkava developed into an standard practice documented in IDF training manuals? I will admit that if it has, such manuals aren't readily available in the local book store. Also, I find very few references to the capability on the internet as well. There are some, but the number of sites that omit any references at all seems to vastly out number those that do mention it.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

If not ment to carry troops or if not doctrine why the sniper port in the read door of some Merkavas? This feature will be on all Namer HAPCs.

This one you would have to ask the designers or tankers who had input into the design. I would take a guess that it would be nice to know the rear of the tank is clear before the crew bails out if they need to. Keep in mind, a sniper is one person with light gear. The Merkava could carry one person extra person without off loading any ammo and the one person should not hinder operations of the tank.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

The ammo is no longer packed in crates as shown in the above thumb-nail. They all come in their own container. Could this allow the ammo load to be shifted from the rear compartment to areas around or under the turret basket? Just enough to carry 50 rounds and 8 troops? Remember 10 rounds are already in the turret in the automatic magazine on MkIV. What about the article that mentions a possible 105mm ammo load of 92 rounds if no troops are carried or about 80 rounds of 120mm? Look up and then explain the Merkava "Tankbulance". 3 stretcher cases, 3 man medical team, life support and enough gear to perform emergency operations. Yet it can still with all this aboard fight like a tank. This version is said to have a reduced ammo load for the main gun but it still looks like anyother Merkava and hits just as hard.

I'm not sure what you mean by they all come in their own container. In one photo, I saw rounds in their own shipping tubes, but you wouldn't put the tubes in the tank. Just the rounds would be loaded. No matter anyhow. I also can see an extra 24 rounds being loaded at the expense of being able to use the rear exit. That gives it 82 rounds with that load.

As far as the Tankbulance, I have read two stretchers from other sources, not three. Despite the fact the website you provided says three, a picture in the same website shows only two and basic life saving equipment. I seriously doubt they are going to have a doctor on board. Even removing a splinter, he is likely to do more harm than good unless the vehicle is standing still, not shooting and not getting hit. Medics are enough. Stabilize and evacuate. That is their role.

Originally Posted by kevineduguay1

The Namer is a very roomy vehicle but as you said only has 8 passenger/troop seats. The Namer is set to replace most if not all other APCs now in inventory with the IDF. It now carries 3 weapons if you count the Soltam 60mm mortar. The 50cal mounted on the R-OWS can be swaped out for a Mk19 AGL. In the near future the IFV varriant may mount a 30mm Bushmaster, coax 7.62 MG and a twin Spike ATGM launch tube mounted on a R-OWS. While the weapon will not protrude in any way into the troop compartment much of that extra space seen now will be used up to store the larger 30mm rounds and extra Spike missiles.

How it impacts the passenger compartment remains to be seen. ATGMs aren't all that small and have to be stored properly, which takes up space. Don't be surprised if it reduces the number of passengers that can be carried. That is if we even find out anytime in the near future. It is unlikely the IDF will publish details in the newspaper.

Do you understand where you are getting resistance from with respect to the change you have requested? I don't think anyone has really questioned that the Merkava can carry troops or that you can fit eight in there, albeit lightly equipped and tight. It still boils down to whether the tactic has made it to mainstream doctrine. Maybe somewhere it is in doctrine on dealing with terrorists and guerrillas who don't have tanks. I highly doubt they would use such a tactic against an enemy who can field hundreds or thousands of tanks. That is the type of war that threatens their very livelihood and that is the type of war their doctrine is going to be built around. If you can show that carrying troops is part of the IDF principle doctrine, I would be surprised if your requested change didn't occur.

[Imp]

Your tanknet post produced virtualy the result expected, can use in an emergency to evacuate but are used with a couple of men on board which is pretty much if you remember how said played when I modified let it carry a scout unit.
Makes sense Israel likes to protect there men so best protected & crucialy fastest vehicle forward, tank commander can stay in the tank & let his passengers go for a look maybe even launch a little hand held UAV.
Or they can check a firing location for suitability & then take up position to defend it from RPGs given opponent.
They also have the ability to field command tanks easily, 2 guys & some electronics could probably fit & still carry a decent ammo load.

[kevineduguay1]

You better go back. Its getting interesting. A member posted as 5-alef is elusive at best. When another member said that the "few" infantry sat between the ammo boxes in the back 5-alef said,

"at the exit and to the sides - where ever there is space"

In the you-tube videos posted here there are 5 men in the back, 4 combat troops and the photographer. Freeze the frame just as the rear doors let in the light. Notice where the men are sitting and the possition of the overhead hand rails. Now go to Tanknet and look at the nice photos posted of the rear compartment of a Mk on my thread.
Also remember that the man commenting on how little space is in the tank is a little over 6 feet tall. (1.95 m)

[Imp]

Kevin go back & reread all the posts it was Alef who said 1 or 2 men & has now elaborated THEY sit to the sides. He is not going to give much more away do not pi&@ them off its classified. Thats all I have to say on the subject Don & Andy can read it & decide the outcome.

[RERomine]

Don't read too much into what wasn't said. This is what he said...

not very accurate - yes, it's not comfortable, but a merk can carry 2-3 fully loaded combat soldiers in the back without giving up ammo. Merks in combat DID carry 1-2 soldiers in the back specifically for combat purposes (i'm not going to go further) and very successfully.

that doesn't say that the tank is a troop carrier - on the contrary, but it HAS the ability to carry troops even without giving up ammo.

Everything I'm reading is saying they aren't going to off load their ammo to carry 8 men or for that matter a 4-man scout team. From one of the photos out there, it looks like if they had 3 men, the third would be standing on the floor of the turret basket. There could be health risks if the turret is rotated to any degree, but that is only my impression based on the photo so take that worth a grain of salt. Kevin, you raise a similar question that hasn't been answered yet.

5-alef didn't go into any details as to how this tactic is used, which is appropriate and expected, however. Also, emphasized was DID. That honestly can be taken any number of ways, but his intentional vagueness leaves us to draw our own conclusions (in the past; during his experience; obsolete tactic). You might get a vote for 2-3 men, provided isn't a crew served weapons team.

Looking at some of the other photos, I wouldn't take those containers as seats, even though you can certainly sit on them. I wouldn't want to be on one of the handles on top, as they don't look very comfy. I'm not sure what those containers would be.

While there could be more answers, have we really gotten anything we didn't already figure out ourselves?

[kevineduguay1]

I already agreed with all those concerned, whatever amount of infantry carried NO HEAVY OR CREW SERVED WEAPONS.

5-alef says that armored infantry was carried in some tank durring the 2006 Lebanon conflict. But no numbers. I have a funny feeling that any other numbers than the ones I found on a few sites and that are mentioned in a few videos is all that we will be able to find.

The only for sure is that ten soldiers came out of a Merkava MkI the day is was first shown to the public.

The Merkava can carry two stretcher cases inside the tank.

How many men can sit in the space of a standard military stretcher?