Vanarus, Machaka Lion Kings etc

[Nikelaos]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Ku****e

K U S H I T E

for all those who haven't guessed it. And those seem like cool ideas honeybadger.

[nordlys]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

the Ku****e Kingdom

I lol'd.

[HoneyBadger]

Censorship is bad, M'kay?

[B0rsuk]

To anyone interested in the history of Africa I would like to recommend a book:

Black Mother by Basil Davidson. It's a curious book - it doesn't read like a history book. It's not a listing of kings, dates and battles. It describes processes, cause and effect. It focuses on effects of slave trade in Africa, as opposed to Europe and America as it's usually done. It's full of many interesting things, including ancient "black" kingdoms of Kongo, Kush which thrived centuries before colonialism. It took 5 hundred years of slave trading to corrupt Africa and bring it to its knees. Prior to that Europeans treaded Africa with respect, and were simply unable to establish any military bridgehead. One of points it makes is that blacks' inferiority is an effect of successful propaganda of slave traders.

Can anyone recommend me interesting books about Africa ? Including fantasy ? Conan is kind of nice, but in these books blacks are always slaves or servants and don't govern themselves.

[Gregstrom]

Alan Dean Foster's Into the Out Of is quite fun, maybe try that?

[HoneyBadger]

B0rsuk, try looking for Charles R Saunders' 'Imaro' trilogy.

Also, if anyone's interested, I'm still (slowly) working on 2 Africa-themed mod Nations. One based on Ethiopia/Aksum, and another that's kind of a mess of influences, but directly inspired by the African slave trade, West African mythology, and the abovementioned 'Imaro' trilogy.

[OmikronWarrior]

Originally Posted by B0rsuk

To anyone interested in the history of Africa I would like to recommend a book:

Black Mother by Basil Davidson. It's a curious book - it doesn't read like a history book. It's not a listing of kings, dates and battles. It describes processes, cause and effect. It focuses on effects of slave trade in Africa, as opposed to Europe and America as it's usually done. It's full of many interesting things, including ancient "black" kingdoms of Kongo, Kush which thrived centuries before colonialism. It took 5 hundred years of slave trading to corrupt Africa and bring it to its knees. Prior to that Europeans treaded Africa with respect, and were simply unable to establish any military bridgehead. One of points it makes is that blacks' inferiority is an effect of successful propaganda of slave traders.

Can anyone recommend me interesting books about Africa ? Including fantasy ? Conan is kind of nice, but in these books blacks are always slaves or servants and don't govern themselves.

John Thornton's Africa and Africans is a modern classic, and a bit of an "antidote" to the theory you suggested above. Thorton argues that Africans retained an enormous amount of "agency" in dealing with Europeans. He also argues that the slave trade did no more lasting damage to African society on the whole as an out break of plauge would have. Furthermore, there were winners and losers in the slave trade within Africa, and some nations arguably came out ahead in the transactions. Obviously, there is a lot in his book, for example he discusses slaves in New World colonies.

Hmmm... this has inspired me to suggest a Late Age nation, a colonial one based on Atlantic World theory. Probably a blend of Machaka, Marignon, and Mictlan. One of its capital sites is called the Grand Plantation, which provides resources, blood slaves, and wealth.

Can anyone else dig it?

[B0rsuk]

Thanks everyone for recommendations. And as for this one...

Originally Posted by OmikronWarrior

John Thornton's Africa and Africans is a modern classic, and a bit of an "antidote" to the theory you suggested above. Thorton argues that Africans retained an enormous amount of "agency" in dealing with Europeans. He also argues that the slave trade did no more lasting damage to African society on the whole as an out break of plauge would have. Furthermore, there were winners and losers in the slave trade within Africa, and some nations arguably came out ahead in the transactions.

I guess I'll check it out, if only because it sounds so different from Black Mother. Black Mother cites numerous examples of black people governing themselves, rebelling (some painted them as unable to take any action) being treated as equals by European monarchs, shows examples of sophisticated purely African culture and pieces of art. Curiously, pieces of art get cruder and cruder with time, illustrating degeneration. Some of the points the book makes:

Slave trade was for most part volountary, at least in the beginning. Capturing slaves by force was quite rare. Later, Africa was unable to stop it. Even when African rulers wanted to stop it, it was too late. If you didn't trade, your neighbors did. Not only would they become wealthy, but would get superior weapons and would invade you. So it wasn't just slave trade, it was also weapon trade, one of dirties trades there is. Some desperate peoples like those in the delta of Kongo sought to take advantage of that and armed themselves. They would only trade if they'd get at least 1 rifle per 1 slave. They were getting stronger and more fortified and were finally able to resist Europeans. Basil Davidson cites this - Africans arming themselves and finally resisting - as a factor contributing to the start of colonialism. No more profit without using force. Of course, Industrial Revolution running out of steam was still the main reason.

- slave trade had a long tradition in Africa, but most slaves would usually assimilate. They had more freedom than in Europe or America, could marry etc. This isn't strange if you realize there was no skin color difference. Meanwhile in America you'd be instantly recognized as different and a slave. In Africa it was blacks among blacks. Imagine many Africans thought Europeans were cannibals !

- about lasting damage: Basil Davidson says the damage was huge and backs it up. First, it isolated "countries". Those at the shore would guard it jealously. The trade was dominated by kings and wealthiest merchants - they had a monopoly. People fought over access to shores so they could trade. And they started wars to capture slaves and fuel the trade. It made Africans hate each other, or more accurately other tribes. Surely wars can cause lasting damage ?

- Africans had a feudal system, but it was too different for Europeans to recognize. It was a tribal feudal system, you had a hierarchy of tribes instead of individuals.

[HoneyBadger]

B0rsuk, did you get my PM?

And one of the reasons African slaves were so popular in America, was actually because of their skin colour. As suggested above, they were instantly recogniseable as atleast potential slaves, which made them a lot easier to recapture, if they tried to escape. And being from Africa, they would have little support system (atleast until the abolitionist movement started taking off), if they did manage to escape successfully.

There were white slaves in America, and many more "indentured servants", who were more or less temporary (for up to a decade or more) slaves-by-contract. The Spanish had also enslaved the natives of South America, but so many died, or escaped (a lot easier to run for the nearest mountain, than to swim to Africa, although many African slaves did escape to join Native American tribes).

It was also probably a little easier for some slaveholders to ignore and stomach the horrors of slavery, if you were inflicting it on someone so clearly foreign.

[Knai]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

There were white slaves in America, and many more "indentured servants", who were more or less temporary (for up to a decade or more) slaves-by-contract. The Spanish had also enslaved the natives of South America, but so many died, or escaped (a lot easier to run for the nearest mountain, than to swim to Africa, although many African slaves did escape to join Native American tribes).

It was also probably a little easier for some slaveholders to ignore and stomach the horrors of slavery, if you were inflicting it on someone so clearly foreign.

Furthermore, there were wage-slaves once industry picked up. The big advantage of skin tone based slavery was the ability to call it the natural order of things, and take advantage of descendants as further slaves. Sure, there were places that rarely happened, bu that was usually due to slaves being cheap commodities in those places. Brazil for instance largely cut out the chain of middle men, and had cheaper voyages to and from Africa, so slaves there were cheap, expendable commodities. Which sucked something awful.