Mod: CBM 1.7 released

[Dimaz]

The game that Xanatos (IIRC) tried to start with CBM 1.5 short after the 1.6 release never started because there were only 4 or 5 players who wanted to join (including me). I think that shows the level of acceptance. I know some people that were against the change but it was sort of impossible to start the game with gemgens here at the time.
Blood being op is completely different matter than SDRs being gemgens or not. Actually I'm not sure that it needs external balancing even if it is op as usually it more or less balances itself in the game (especially with diplomacy). Also banning gemgens effectively made blood stronger so it's just the conseqence of previous decisions. And removing SDRs of cause nerfs blood but 1) unequally for different nations 2) it removes just another "investment" part of the game which is bad imo. They are sort of cheap for what they do I agree, 10B seems more adequate.

[quantum_mechani]

The fact that apparently there is still around 25% support for gem gens certainly supports the idea there was even greater division over them then.

I actually would not be that opposed to 10b SDRs instead of unique ones, but I think most of the issues would remain the same. Investment options are only interesting so long as they are just that, options. They make a lot more sense in a game designed to make strategic choices of that sort- and dominions is not that game. Investment options are so few, that they seem to either become mandatory choices or trivial effects. I tend to think this is because marginal resource advantages are not really what make or break rushes in general, you are almost never making the choice of much needed offensive options to expand vs. investment. Because there are so few investment options (even base game), you can easily soak the cost of all available investments and still be in very nearly as strong of a military position.

Anyway, that's my theory for why investment options always seem to be unavoidable or too marginal to consider in dominions, but it also seems a pretty unavoidable conclusion empirically.

[Corinthian]

I agree with quantum_mechani on this that the problem was not exponential investments, so much as it was the no brainer situation. Because lets face it: In a strategy game, EVERYTHING you spend resources on is an investment. You invest in troops to get provinces, you get provinces to get gold, you get gold to get troops.
The gem gens was too cheap and gave too good a return on the investment. It became far superior too more conventional early game strategies, like spamming low level summonings.

In the early game there is not a lot of spells that will put you in a better position, than hoarding gems, for casting higher level spells later, will do.

Also, clamming was not obvious to your neighbors, unlike a high province or gem income count. Witch would be the result of other kinds of investments. Therefore it prevented people from gauging your threat level and gang up on you before it was to late.

All of these things could be fixed by reducing the profit of the investment. In vanilla, a clam of pearl will pay for itself in 14 turns and could be made with hammers after researching const 2.

My solution is to make the gemgens worse investments. Lets change the cost of the clams from 15W 5N to 20W 5N and also change the construction requirements to const 6. Also if you are going to return the hammers, give it the "No forge discount" tag. This would change the rate of return from 14 to 25 turns. And by the time you reach const 6 there will be other high level spells to compete for the gems.

It will still pay for itself eventually, but it is no longer a no brain investment and will probably only be done by well entrenched turtlers, like underwater nations. Or by people that wanted const 6 for other reasons.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

The fact that apparently there is still around 25% support for gem gens certainly supports the idea there was even greater division over them then.

No it means that these who opposed your gemgen-purge initially still dont like it, and sometimes visit these boards out of nostalgy or something like that.
You seem to take it for granted that these who have played your mod for a while come to love all its features. Well, it's not necessary true. Make another poll if you wish - 'Did you change your opinion about gemgens over the last year?' - with answers like 'No / Yes, I like it without gemgens now / Yes, I have decided that removing gemgens was a lame solution.' Perhaps you will be surprised... perhaps I will. Seriously, that would be interesting.

Now, for the 'obligatory investments' thing. Yes, you need hammers to compete. Is it a bad thing? No. Is having fewer magic items a bad thing? Yes, in my opinion.
Need for hammers encourages either diplomacy or creativity. Initially, you just need one or two; later, any nation can forge them. Added micromanagement is also marginal.
You oversimplify the game.