Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[rdonj]

Cost of items is directly related to their path level. So you can't have SDRs at b2 and 15 slaves. If you want them to be 15 slaves, then they have to be b3 items. It's not possible to do otherwise. And I should probably point out that either way, it makes SDRs much more useful for the already strong blood nations than for everyone else... so why are we bothering to bring them back in again?

Also noobliss, you're seriously overreacting.

And Jarkko, if you are responsible for the banning of TheConway... I would get banned for saying what I think of you, and you're the one who'd deserve it.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by rdonj

And Jarkko, if you are responsible for the banning of TheConway... I would get banned for saying what I think of you, and you're the one who'd deserve it.

I have no power to ban anybody on this forum.

Perhaps he was banned for breaking the rules? Point 10 spesifically.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

I have no power to ban anybody on this forum.

Perhaps he was banned for breaking the rules? Point 10 spesifically.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

You don't have to have the power to do the banning if you influenced a moderator into doing said banning, which in my opinion is what happened. And not being able to call you out on the levels of villainy you seem to have descended to without getting banned is a real shame. It's pathetic how often people on this forum manipulate the forum rules for their own ends instead of dealing with each other like human beings. And as long as you don't outright say what you think and mean, you're safe, but if you can taunt the other person into calling you out, you can then report them and "win" by getting them banned. What a load of crap.

On topic: Yay, CBM 1.8! Thank you QM for your continued efforts in making the game more fun, interesting, and balanced. Boo naysayers.

[NooBliss]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

The same with hammers, and SDR's. They are so good, that there is no point in not using them. Games become very dull if each game is, rush construction. Forge Turtle Win.

I have yet to see a winner who turtled. Or an good player who turtles, for that matter. Or perhaps we have different definitions of turtling.

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

It creates the runaway leader problem. (Which strat games tend to have). As long as you lead in gems, gold, etc. You can create more gems/gold quicker just because you are in the lead. Removal of gemgens and hammers makes this less so. (Not so convinced about the SDR).

Gemgens, maybe. Hammers - no, they dont. Its not hard to make or trade for a pair of hammers and use them, and they only multiply the amount of gems you get from your land.

And the runaway leader problem is still there, in case you didnt notice. Whoever has more land gets more gems and gold, provided he also site-searches and had half-decent scales, of course. Is there anything wrong with it?

And you cannot always boost everything to the point of usefulness, some stuff is just overpowered. Or, something that is used always. If you use a hammer for all your forgings, you could just as well remove the hammer, and reduce all the forging costs.[/quote]

You can. Llama's diversity mod did it, in my opinion - now every path has some nasties to summon. Except death, of course - with tarts not GoReasonable anymore. Oh, I forgot to add - thats another reason I'll stick to 1.6 from now on.
If something is good and everyone uses it, it doesnt mean it has to be banned, for hell's sake. Asinjas, Shishi etc are also good and gonna be used - will QM ban them too? I think not. Perhaps because these summons are straightforward and dont require as much effort?
Same with hammer. Yes, you use it for all your forgings. But its not hard to do so, it just requires some effort.

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Ps: I love how the removal of the SDR changes everything Dom3 is about. You are overreacting a bit. Dom is still choose a nation, and win. But blood is not something every nation can do just as easy. Just as not every nation has Jaguars or high astral, or heavily armored shock troops who shoot explosive ammo, have a fanatical devotion to a dead superhuman on a toilet, and cybernetic implants.

Not every nation has Jaguars - thats right.
Not every nation has high Astral - true, but you need at least one high astral caster in the endgame.
Blood is not something every nation can do easily - that was always so, but why make it even harder while leaving major blood nations relatively untouched? Oh, some additional gold expenses. The horror.
Its easy to dismiss something just by saying 'you are overreacting'.

[PriestyMan]

The same with hammers, and SDR's. They are so good, that there is no point in not using them. Games become very dull if each game is, rush construction. Forge Turtle Win.

I have yet to see a winner who turtled. Or an good player who turtles, for that matter. Or perhaps we have different definitions of turtling.

its funny that you say that. try playing with more vets. qm or juffos are both very very good players who are guilty of being turtles. (although qm is by far the more notorios one) trust me, turtling, especially with gemgens was the way to go.

Its easy to dismiss something just by saying 'you are overreacting'.

yeah. cause you are

[NooBliss]

Originally Posted by PriestyMan

Its funny that you say that. try playing with more vets. qm or juffos are both very very good players who are guilty of being turtles. (although qm is by far the more notorios one) trust me, turtling, especially with gemgens was the way to go.

I have played with vets, thank you very much. So far, they expand fast and conquer their neighbours as soon as they can.

Does QM even play anything other than blitzes? Turtling on a small map once you've conquered a good parcel of land - maybe that's a sound tactics, for a while. Turtling on a huge map while others keep expanding? Thats suicide.

Originally Posted by PriestyMan

yeah. cause you are

Yeah. Cause you say so.

[Dimaz]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Some stuff is so good that you cannot win unless you also use it. The gengems for example. Most give a constant boost to gems after only 15 turns. Create enough of them, and you could not lose, so the endgame became, who can create the most gemgens the quickest.

(With some variation of skill, but it is hard to beat an opponent who gets 100 more gems than you get each turn).

The real problem is when several players have hundreds of gemgens at the end so the game just stucks without a clear winner or Armageddon fest starts. What you describe is the viable way to win in the game with gemgens. I have to remind that this game has been played WITH gemgens for most of it's existence and still was fun to play. However I agree that removing them in the form they used to be was for the good.

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

The same with hammers, and SDR's. They are so good, that there is no point in not using them. Games become very dull if each game is, rush construction. Forge Turtle Win.

Really? I followed this recipe once and lost, how can it be? It has something to do with gemgen removal probably.

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

It creates the runaway leader problem. (Which strat games tend to have). As long as you lead in gems, gold, etc. You can create more gems/gold quicker just because you are in the lead. Removal of gemgens and hammers makes this less so. (Not so convinced about the SDR).

So if you lead in gems gold etc you should be able to create less of them or what? I'm intrigued.

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Jade knives where just broken. . A blood sac spam with jade knives isn't counterable.

Blood is powerful, and blood sac is powerful, but please show me a game won by blood sac alone or as the main part of the winner's strategy.
Sorry I don't have time to comment the rest now..

[Executor]

Originally Posted by Dimaz

Blood is powerful, and blood sac is powerful, but please show me a game won by blood sac alone or as the main part of the winner's strategy.
Sorry I don't have time to comment the rest now..

I tend to have a very similar opinion to yours generally Dimaz, but, I do think you might be underestimating blood sacrifice.

Personally I love how the jade knives operate and wouldn't have excluded them, but on smaller maps for 10 or under players they could have been just brutal, and once a dom rush starts it's nearly impossible to stop it. I myself have been in two games that were won by a dom rush, one with Mictlan by myself, and the other by Archaeolept by Hinnom, and both victories took only half a dozen turns.

Still I have no problem with such victories as I consider it a very legit way to win and not a very often one, and I personally consider it to be the most respected way to win, as this *is a game of dominions.

[WraithLord]

I'd just like to make one comment. Most of the Vets I know (with exception of QM ) are absolutely not turtlers, they are aggressive as hell and will jump at any opportunity or sign of weakness to crush and subjugate other nations.

Tarts are overnerfed and now death nations are stuck with way overpriced, afflicted & shattered souled (meaning 25% offline) equivalent of EDM SCs (Ember lord etc).

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by rondj;

... Path levels ...

Thanks, I keep forgetting that.

Originally Posted by NooBliss;

You can. Llama's diversity mod did it, in my opinion - now every path has some nasties to summon.

Adding something is not the same as boosting an existing something to be more powerful. We where talking about specific item boosts and nerfs here. You are trying to make it about different magical paths. And the endgame diversity. Two totally different issues.

Edit: also there is a big problem with game development that you are never ever allowed to nerf something, or take something away, or a lot of players start to cry. This makes it very hard to undo game design mistakes. (Which currently, gemgens are. (It could be fixed if the gems showed up in the graphs, and if it was easier to take out the gemgens (Lets say, immobile slotless units)).

Originally Posted by NooBliss;

If something is good and everyone uses it, it doesnt mean it has to be banned, for hell's sake. Asinjas, Shishi etc are also good and gonna be used - will QM ban them too? I think not. Perhaps because these summons are straightforward and dont require as much effort?

It isn't only that it is so good that everybody uses it. It is because it is so good that you always get a guaranteed quick return on investment. A tactic that is only counter able by adopting the tactic yourself. See Hammers, Clams etc.

Originally Posted by NooBliss;

And the runaway leader problem is still there, in case you didnt notice. Whoever has more land gets more gems and gold, provided he also site-searches and had half-decent scales, of course. Is there anything wrong with it?

I noticed, the removal of certain items just makes it less pronounced. And it makes it easier for other nations to catch up.

And Asinjas, Shishi don't generate new gems etc (which is what a forge bonus actually is, a way to "generate" gems by using less of them). You need to put them in harms way, attack the enemy, get his lands. For them to be useful. (Sure they gen RP, but everything does, and there are cheaper ways of getting RP).

The controversial item removals all made it easier to reach the point where you couldn't do anything about a runaway leader anymore. Once the jadeknife dompush started rolling, it could only be stopped by ganging up on the player. Once you had enough hammers for all your mages you would just get a defacto 25%+ gem bonus each turn. Which all made nations with easier earth, or w3n1 access to strong.

Sure there are still spells, and sites which do this in the game. (A alteration 20% site can also create this situation, just as casting certain globals, or even certain nations are build for it (LA Ermor for example)). But you can at least see a lot of these coming, you can dispel the global, take the site, etc etc. They are counterable.

(And I would never advocate for creating penalties for the leader, as that would create neverending games. These kind of games should have runaway leaders, but not runaway leader problems).

Originally Posted by NooBliss;

Oh, I forgot to add - thats another reason I'll stick to 1.6 from now on.

Why are we even having this discussion then? Ow nevermind. This is already taking up way to much time.

But feel free to create your own custom CBM mod. Remove the item cost boosts, put the hammers, SDR, and knives back in. I'm sure there are still a lot of players willing to play your games.

Originally Posted by NooBliss;

Oh, some additional gold expenses. The horror.

You do realize that additional gold expenses are a big deal right? A blood nation already has a lot of expenses, upkeep gold, using mage turns to get slaves. So you have less mages for combat duty, RP etc. Some additional gold cost can be really painful then.

Gold, gems, mageturns (and thus fortturns) are the main resources of this game. They matter. And gold and mageturns matter even more for a blood nation. (you have one additional research path, and less researchers).

Originally Posted by Dimaz;

So if you lead in gems gold etc you should be able to create less of them or what? I'm intrigued.

You know what I mean. Stop trying to misrepresent my point.

Inclusion of gemgens, hammers, and sdrs makes it easier to increase a small lead into a big lead. After your basic needs are met (upkeep, expansion, some defense and research) you can pour the rest of the resources into these three classes of items, to quick increase your lead. With hammers a 2 e site was more valuable than a 2 d site. because after 10 turns the 2e would not be 20 e, but a permanent reduction in forging costs.

Sure you should still be able to use a small lead to create a bigger lead. But it should be more about the armies clashing, conquering territories, casting extremely powerful spells, etc.

Not using your labs to forge equip to forge more equipment. Not all games should be won in the forge.

Originally Posted by Dimaz;

Blood is powerful, and blood sac is powerful, but please show me a game won by blood sac alone or as the main part of the winner's strategy.

Sure, there is even a guide for it:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...?showtopic=120
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45850

And I said it wasn't counterable. As preaching doesn't really work that well. And a indy priest with a JK generates 6 temple checks.