OT: For all the genocidal dictators...

[Growltigga]

If I ever have business dealings in the UK and am in need of a competent litigator, I will certainly keep you in mind.

But I am not a litigator... you do not even want to know what one of those guys are like (too much red meat and testosterone I am told)

However I could, if I were so inclined, most likely purchase the necessary materials to effect YOUR dastardly scheme. I am not rich by any means (certainly not of the level of one employed as a finance lawyer) and I believe that I could purchase the prerequisite 100 mines given a few months.

How? dont tell me your gun laws are so lax you can buy mines can you?

Average educational levels and general public opinion notwithstanding, line dancers are not typically idiots.

You are right - it takes a lot of brainpower to wear chaps and a stetson, call yourself "Dead Eye Dick" or something similar and dance like a fit

However were I an individual of sufficient means, say a person who could travel to Japan for sporting events at the drop of a hat,

You dont want to know how long I saved for that trip or how deep in debt I am now... us UK lawyers earn about 1/4 of what equivalent lawyers do...

and Borneo is not in Africa, it is in South East Asia and I have got one hell of a deal on that trip

So sir, I put to you that your plan is actually the more likely of the two, and thus the far more dangerous one to be permitted to be uttered.

I disagree, I am solicitor of the supreme court and therefore honest, noble, brave and wise... I would not ruin 100 landmines that way

Somebody get me the number for Interpol please, "Thought police" division preferably.

Someone get the attendents from the local funny farm down here to take you and Baron Munchausen away... dont worry, we will give you stylish straightjackets....

[Pax]

Originally posted by Growltigga:
But I suppose it's part of the price we pay for freedom of speech.

Freedom of Speech does not permit you to violate both public policy principals and public morality.

Freedom of Speech does not allow me to stand on my soapbox and advocate genocide, rape, abuse, child pornography or a whole host of other issues. Freedom of Speech should not allow stupid bloody websites like this.

WRONG.

That is EXACTLY what Freedom OF Speech means. We are supposed to be able to speak about ANYTHIGN WE WANT -- not just "approved topics" ... not just to advocate "approved positions" or "approved opinions" ...

For example, I personally find White Supremacy to be not only a crock of sh*t, but also abhorrent. But you know what? I'll happily defend their right to hold, and express, their views.

Free speech is just that -- the freedom to speak. About anything -- not just "about what soiciety deems palatable for conversation" ...

If Eruopeans believe that Freedom to Speak should be limited in any way whatsoever related solely to the topic being discussed ... then you folks don't have FREE speech. You have APPROVED speech.

Normally I am displeased with my country, owing to the deplorable trends in foreign policy and the ghastly restriction of rights domestically.

But ... thank you, you've just restored in me SOME gladness to be an American, and not be from somewhere else.

Free speech is without topic / opinion based limitations ... or it's not free. This isn't just an issueof American vs European ideals ... it's an issue of logic.

If someone says "You are free to discuss only that which I approve for you to discuss" ... then he's not giving me freedom to discuss much of anything at all.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Growltigga:
How? dont tell me your gun laws are so lax you can buy mines can you?

I don't think so, but illegalites aside I am sure that mines would be easier to procure than mouse click controlled global death ray guns, even in the UK.

You are right - it takes a lot of brainpower to wear chaps and a stetson, call yourself "Dead Eye Dick" or something similar and dance like a fit

Much less I am sure than it does to strip to your pantaloons, paint your body in your national colors and trapse about in general drunken debauchery, stopping your voiciferous bouts of deragatory epithets only long enough to physically abuse the opposing team's hooligan fans for having the audactiy to do exactly the same thing, only with slightly different color body paint.

You dont want to know how long I saved for that trip or how deep in debt I am now... us UK lawyers earn about 1/4 of what equivalent lawyers do...

Meaning they are merely not quite so overpaid?

and Borneo is not in Africa, it is in South East Asia and I have got one hell of a deal on that trip

Geography was never my strong suit.

I disagree, I am solicitor of the supreme court and therefore honest, noble, brave and wise... I would not ruin 100 landmines that way

...As are all those in the legal profession I am sure. The esteem with which laywers are held is as close to a universal truth as mankind has ever found.

[ July 15, 2002, 18:16: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Puke]

mmmm, thought police. while i fully support GTs implication that most people are sheep, incapable of making their own determinations on morality when confronted with questionable ideas, i have to conceed that without the freedom to express those ideas, we would be forfitting other freedoms which i am in the habbit of abusing.

quite frankly, i would not give a darn about someone else's freedom of speach being regulated if i didnt think it would set a precident that could be used against ME, later. but for my own good, i have to maintain the assumption that playing DOOM does force children to gun down their school mates, playing Grand Theft Auto 3 does not force people to solicit prostitutes before murdering them for their money, and playing SE4 does not force people to spray napalm over cities.

now if you attempt to reason that kiddy porn does not force people to go out and take advantage of children, that may be so. the difference is, that child pornography is MADE by taking advantage of children. The problem should not be the need to protect the weak minded public from immatating published ideas, but that by supporting published material that has been made by breaking the laws, you are encouraging further criminal activity. thats whats wrong with child porn and snuff videos: if you are buying them, you are giving financial support to child molestors and murders. if you are viewing them, you are giving approval to the same activities.

if the makers of that web site are actually practicing or financing genocidal activities, it should be taken down. somehow, i dont think they are.

[Puke]

wow, ease up guys. lets not get angry with each other about dancing styles, sports brawls, and income brackets. i cant dance, im unsporting, and i make more money than i deserve. go ahead and get mad at me for it, both of you.

i agree with everything Pax had to say, except the foreign policy bit. our foreign policy benefits US. would you rather have one that benefits OTHER people instead of us? thats just nonesense, man. Forigners frown on our policies because they get the short end of them. I think they're great. My boots were made in a sweat shop in China, my shirt was made in a sweat shop in Pakistan, and market factors made my car cheap to import from Japan, though it was probably assembled by domestic labor (or robots).

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Puke:
wow, ease up guys. lets not get angry with each other about dancing styles, sports brawls, and income brackets. i cant dance, im unsporting, and i make more money than i deserve. go ahead and get mad at me for it, both of you.

Puke, I have no objection to anyone making as much money as they can. Like every other person I aspire to be horribly overpaid someday. Although lord willing it won't be as a member of the "second oldest profession". I enjoy sleep too much.

Geo

[Baron Munchausen]

Ah, todays explosive topic is Freedom of Speech, is it?

First of all, Gt, I was not 'offended' by your sig but simply pointing out that the principle you advocated could be turned against yourself. 'Freedom of Speech' is a legal principle and thus has to be applied equally to all. If advocating the death of many, even in jest, is not allowed, then advocating the death of a few, even in jest, is not allowed either. Else, we are placing the judge(s) or jury into the position of using sorites to resolve a case. If 20 people is not enough to violate the 'limit' on freedom of speech, is 25? If not 25, then 30? Etc... It's the old puzzle of where 'quantity' and 'quality' change hands. Because the act/event advocated in both your sig and that 'awful' website are the same. It's just a difference of scale.

And that's why the principle of Freedom of Speech has caused so much controversy. In order to preserve all reasonable speech from unreasonable application of the law we all have to put up with things we don't like. Anything that is judged 'out of the bounds of decency' will be twisted around to apply to something else. It's one of those 'cynical maxims' -- Any available power will be used by goverment, for whatever purpose it can be used for not just the 'original intent'.

This is what concerns people with the new 'anti-terrorism' laws here in the US. Anything that an FBI agent gets offended at could be defined as terrorism now, anyONE that some FBI agent wants to investigate could be defined as a terrorist and have his/her rights stripped away for nothing more than being 'suspicious looking' on some vague personal criteria. Speaking out against the 'War on Terrorism' is definitely offensive to many people here right now. While it probably gets you added to The List of people to be watched and investigated, it doesn't get you arrested automatically -- yet. If it were possible to legally define 'offensive speech' then it probably would. I mean, anyone who thinks we shouldn't go and blow up the terrorists is obviously saying that we should just put up with the thousands of deaths inflicted by them. That's just obscene! The fact that dropping bombs is rather messy and inexact, killing more civilians than terrorists, doesn't seem to matter to these same people who are terribly offended at 'terrorism'.

And, btw, we've got a political advocacy group for sex with children here in the US. It's called NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association). One of the priests accused in the current scandal has been a member for decades. I'll admit that it's pretty sick, and obvious to me that anyone who could advocate making sex with children 'normal' was abused him/her self, but the same logic that would suppress talking about this can be used to suppress almost anything else. You don't think we should put pot smokers in prison for 20 years to life? You're a degenerate and a threat to society! In the slammer you go with those evil pot smokers!!! It would be interesting to know if NAMBLA members are watched by the porn squad, though... and if their public advocacy is allowed to be used to get warrants on them. hmm.

But anyway, if offensive jokes are ruled out, we wargamers are gonna be next. Remember that next time you play your PBW turn.

[ July 15, 2002, 18:57: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]