Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[ghoul31]

Originally Posted by Executor

You're right, I'd probably do better in a competitive MP game, more incentive.
I'd use mercs and expand faster, wider. I'd blitz the weakest bastard who'd border me and double my nation in almost no time, with very little loses probably.
That is if everyone didn't decide to gang up on me from the start. But why should they since Ashdod is ruined now?

I have no doubt a gang would kill me instantly in the first 15-20ish turns of course, but, if I were left to kill my first neighbor which would have no chance in hell what so ever to fend off from this, even a 3-4 side gank would have trouble putting me down at that point.

Any nation that is unstoppable in a no diplo game should perhaps get some changes. I count Ashdod as such a nation personally. Not because of the mages, sacreds, summons, good national troops, but the absurdity that Adons can become very early on. And as such I don't think they can be balanced at all, nor Ashdod for that matter.
And this is why it will continue to be ganked upon always, whatever nerfs are implemented.

no, a bless nation like Van with their 24 defense 0 enc troops would just slaughter all those junk troops and you would be dead by turn 20

and if you are too scared to actually play them in a real game, then please stop posting.

[Executor]

LOL
You're right ghouly, I will stop posting, but for entirely different reasons. A man has only so much sanity and sleep he can spare.
Good night trolls, it's been... something else entirely.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Executor

Good night trolls, it's been... something else entirely.

Hopefully, you'll calm down after a good night's rest and stop taking things personally. That and actually responding to points made would be nice...

Or you can just call everybody who disagrees with you a troll and run, that works too.

[kianduatha]

Heh...I learned just now that Spine Devils are actually pretty good counters to fully tricked out Adons, amusingly enough. Them poison spines are killer when half your attacks are length 0. It might take a dozen or so of them to take him down, but it's totally worth it. Also it should be noted that the sample Adon you gave had super-nice prot on his body but only 17 on his head, which is rather a lot worse than 36 prot in general. That is admittedly because bracers of prot give body armor these days; I forget if that is going to get reverted.

[bbz]

Yea I found the thread about the bracers. thx for the info

About burning perls I think there was a thread somewhere explaining when a mage will use more perls(something like if the spell requires less than 50 fatigue or makes the overall fatigue less than 50 then the mage won't use gems to increase casting lvl) but I can't be bothered to find it. Point is with body ethereal you can take on most PD without worries.Same goes for unexpecting thugs/SCs.So they make their kill and the enemy canno't even mind hunt them, so its a pain having to deal with them.

[Valerius]

Lol. I had forgotten about bracers stacking. Nice use of those three misc slots, Executor. Though I might sacrifice one of those bracers for a pendant of luck.

Another nice piece of Constr. 2 gear forgeable by Ashdod is lantern shields. While the opponent chases around the corpse candles you can buff in peace. Added bonus: fear.

And, if facing Aby or an F9 bless you can use fire plate instead of black plate for 100 FR.

Also, if you build a temple/lab and can scrape together 5 N gems you can forge a raw hide shield so that you will be fatigue neutral with just the E5 bless.

I've never faced off with Ashdod. Tuatha vs. Adon would be an interesting matchup.

[Executor]

P3D, yes Hinnom is better. I agree, it can do anything Ashdod can better, though I've never played against Gath so far so I won't make any claims for them. Personally, Ashdod seems better to me than Gath at a glance.
Generally, the unrest and pop eating is a large deterrent when taking Hinnom. I know it's not a big MM problem but people still dislike dealing with it. Well, me first anyway.

Kianduatha, you can even use ghouls to kill such SCs. Cast a few Arouse Hungers. A few successful attacks will ramp up his fatigue due to that paralyzing claw.

Valerius, you could use faithful for luck. A level 2 construct as well.

Anyway, do sole Adons make Ashdod unbalanced? No. They have an array of other nice stuff too. A lot of small things combined does. Like the recent boosts to MA Ulm.
Are Fomo Kings better for example? They can be. Certainly. But their sacred giants suck compared to Ashdod. And their mage force is near nonexistent. Anyone who's played them knows what I'm talking about.

Do I think Adons are OP? Yes. Do I think Adons are unbalanced? That too. I've seen what these things can do and I don't like what is Ashdod early on.
Do I think everything can and should be balanced? I don't for that matter as that would take out much of the flavor out of Dominions. But I still do stand by my earlier, mock comment, that without removing Adons, Ashdod couldn't be balanced. But like I said, I don't actually expect or advocate any changes to them. Some things just can't be balanced as they're built like that. Like Amos nations.
Are there better SCs than Adons? Yes, their EA bothers are much better. Does having one better OP thing make another OP thing less good? It does not.
Is Ashdod unplayable now since they got an increase of another point of enc? It isn't. Is it weak? It certainly isn't. Is it OP still? It is. Can the nation be adequately balanced? I don't think so.

All of this is my personal point of view. A lot of you probably disagree with me, which is a good thing, as if everyone advocated the same thing we'd have a much sorrier version of CBM now.

And one last thing. I get that people will, and should, have different points of views. I respect other peoples opinion. But I don't think if I state certain things ( even something radical like when I said why Agartha PD is hopelessly OP, or make a mock comment about Adons and state why they are still a killer unit ) that my comments should be argued in such a way or ridiculed. There's a fine line between debating and what's been going on in this thread.
So, I apologize for all my comments from last night. And if anyone else wants to have a normal debate of why Ashdod is far from ruined I'd be happy to.

BTW, I agree Zamzummite are fine like Valerius said. 1/4 will have D3 and 1/4 will have astral which can be as good or even better than D3. Though I find them slightly overpriced.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by Executor

Is Ashdod unplayable now since they got an increase of another point of enc? It isn't. Is it weak? It certainly isn't. Is it OP still? It is. Can the nation be adequately balanced? I don't think so.

Enc-3 is a huge shift--even with an E5 bless it is impossible to get net-0 on your F2 and S2 Adons until either Const-4 for Girdles or scraping up an indy shaman with some nature income(or alchemizing and it just costing 10S) to make birch boots. And that's a pain--especially if you were going Conj-3 for your Earth guys. I'm tempted to say that Ashdod should only go E9 instead of E10 nowadays because you're not going to get quite there either way.

[Shangrila00]

Originally Posted by Executor

Personally, Ashdod seems better to me than Gath at a glance.

Consider your test game. Put the gear you forged on a Kohen Gadol, which as mentioned already, is basically an unequipped Adon with better magic. If you think your test game demonstrates an imbalance in Ashdod, why do you not think it demonstrates an even greater imbalance in Gath?

So, I apologize for all my comments from last night. And if anyone else wants to have a normal debate of why Ashdod is far from ruined I'd be happy to.

Odd, you say your ridiculousness on Adons was mock, but then you still stand by it. That you want a serious debate on why Ashdod is still playable or even that it's still powerful...which nobody has disputed except Ghoul, and is a far cry from that mock claim you stand by. You even say it's not Adon's per se that make Ashdod OP still, but lots of little things that add up...and still stand by your claim that it's impossible to balance Ashdod by looking at the little things, but instead Adons must be removed for that to happen.

Whether or not anyone wants a normal debate would have to depend on whether you only want to claim something not much disputed, or still everything you claimed last night, even if you take back the personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Lol, managing astral SC's is one of the easiest areas in which it's obvious to spot whether someone is a decent player or a complete scrub.

I wouldn't worry about it Executor, it's obvious to most readers who knows what they are talking about.

Hey Nightfall, surely you agree that Ashdod is only middle of the pack. After all, Man is the strongest bless nation in the MA right? But even you didn't claim that Man was massively OP.

[bbz]

I don't understand why is everybody so obsessed with getting fatigue down to 0. Gaining 1 enc a turn is not that much of a big deal until turn 25-30 of the battle. The problem with enc 1 is undead spam and thats where fatigue 0 is important but since you are talkin about expanding I don't see where is the problem.

Edit: they do get 2 enc with earth 10 my bad. But still that is not too bad until turn 15ish of battle.