Ashdod is worthless now

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

I'll redirect you to Peter's elegant post named before. You should really stop using "it's commonly used that way among Llamaserver MP competitive community" as it stands for "it's commonly used that way in Dominions 3". I play outside of Llamaserver as well, and I see Niefle Giants rushes commonly.

I'll redirect you again to Peter's post, but suffice to say that I think they are (or should be) a valid option for other blesses, like W6F6, or N9, for example. It's not that other blesses do not work with them, but that E9N4-6 is much better than any other bless (for MP compettitive play among veterans in 10-15 provinces per player maps at least). If CBM wants to balance things out, maybe they should balance what is the most ubiquitous strategy in the game. E9 bless is seen in all ages, in several nations.

(1) Considering suboptimal blesses like W6F6 for Niefl Giants doesn't help with balance decisions. You consider the best possible bless, balance the unit for using that, and that's that. If some other bless works, good for it. If no other bless works, oh well, that's the way it goes.

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'. A unit with its best possible bless has to be balanced. If someone takes a suboptimal bless, that's them taking a suboptimal bless. That is not something that needs to be balanced around. If everyone played W9 Blindfighters it wouldn't change the fact that W9 is an awful bless for Blindfighters.

(3) Anikim before the nerf wouldn't work with N9 or F6W6, so i don't see how that's at all germane to the discussion. This is not something the nerf changed. Those have always been terrible blesses for Anikim.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well. You can't expect me to even begin to consider that a serious bless for Nieflheim, with any number of players. Its strictly worse than E4N4 for Nieflheim, much less E9N4. *Not taking any bless* would be better than that.

(The Fomoria doesn't sound so bad - more scales than bless, nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure i'd call that an unmarked bless though, he just happened to use some unmarked. Scales are a viable build for most nations, with or without some light rainbow blessing.)

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Is bless the only consideration when building your pretender? Of course not. But it *is* the only consideration when it comes to judging whether or not its worth hiring a given sacred. In the context of a sacred a bless is either good or bad or indifferent. One possible bless is the best.

If people choose to use suboptimal blesses for reasons other than blessing their troops, well, that's due to considerations beside what their sacreds are. That has nothing to do with balancing sacreds. All your reasons for taking suboptimal blesses have *nothing to do with the sacreds*. So if that particular bless makes the sacreds unplayably bad, the solution is obvious - don't play with them! Use other units.

Surely you wouldn't advocate Niefl Giants should be balanced around assuming a W9 bless for them? They're clearly really bad units that aren't worth anywhere close to 125g at that point. But if we slash the price to 50g or whatever they might be worth with a W9 bless, then someone comes along with E9N4 Niefl Giants and destroys people because they're clearly undercosted. When we're talking about balancing sacreds, we should be assuming optimal blesses on those sacreds.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well.

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

Yes, but if the result is 'inevitably lose horribly', then its really not something that should be taken seriously.

You're welcome to play W9 anakim and do just as well in the current CBM, if you like.

[Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Actually strong dominion is a must with Niefelheim in general because every province without cold 3 gets income penalties. And its good for the popsicle giants in particular because of the Coldpower and Cold protection that they got.

Now the drawback is that you cant put Fire and Earth on him for diversity. Thats bad because those paths are a pain to bootstrap into unless you get lucky with indies or use Aschaic records.

This bless is also worse for your thugs (but we took it strictly for the troops). You have to put messenger boots on your skrattis if you want to thug with them. So thats 5 gems extra for every thug.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

That's my point. You can, if you want, be creative. Sure, there are "better" blesses than others. It's hard to argue that E9 or W9 are better than A9, for example. But even if some blesses are "optimal", they should not be "the only one that is possible". There's a difference between Jaguars benefiting more from F9 than S9, and not being able to use any other bless but F9.

Encumbrance 7 in a unit with 75g44r per attack (and no damaging aura), pretty much *force* them to earth blesses. With Encumbrance 5 it'll be the best possible bless anyway, but it would not force people to take it no matter of what. Someone could try to be creative as you did with your W4N6 bless. With encumbrance 7, that's simply not an option.


Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

Blindfighters? (Was 10, now 8 in CBM)

There's piles of heavily armored units with >5 encumbrance in the base game.

And the problem with enc 5 anakim is they're broken overpowered in year 1 with E10N4+. So that's not even an option. It doesn't matter if it would let other blesses work, E10N4+ is too good so it can't be allowed to happen.

[Starbelly Geek]

Originally Posted by triqui

Now that I think, what other units have encumbrance 7, besides Annakites and centaur Cataphracts?

Nightmares (blessable Onyx Amazon unit) has 12 encumbrance. They're really great if you can guarantee that they won't have to fight for more than two rounds (or one if you hit them with a W9 bless). Too bad, because that massed interlocking fear aura could be so awesome.
An E10 bless makes them useful for up to four or five rounds of actual melee!

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Contradiction much? (Note emphasis added)

It may be stronger for the nation (though I highly doubt it), but its not stronger for Niefl Giants. As you admit yourself. There's a difference between a bless that's optimal for a sacred and a pretender build that's optimal for the nation.

More generally, why would you even take a Son of Fenrir, its a bad chassis that does nothing for you? A green dragon would get you the N bless and be able to expand (not that Nieflheim needs it - well, they probably do as you apparently don't plan on using Niefl Jarls).

I think you'd find that E9 doubles the expected lifetime (or more) of Niefl Giants, and you don't double your income by avoiding it, plus it makes your Niefl Jarls into SCs from turn 1. The viable alternatives to E9N4 from a nation (not Niefl Giant) perspective are E4N4-based rainbows, which use skinshifters or just Jarls to expand, and the rainbow to diversify and site search.