MP: Morla MA noob game (running)

[Olm]

Originally Posted by shatner

Man jumped in "to defend Ermor" because they were big and their opponents were occupied. The fact that there are paragraphs of of Man rooting for Ermor's destruction (back when Ermor was big and Man was not) makes Man's continually restated casus belli so much hypocracy and hot air.

We of T'ien Ch'i have never condemned Ermor for their actions. Heck, we don't even condemn Man for their actions, we just can't stomach the rhetoric being used to justify it. Man, if you are going to invade Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i because we are adjacent, pre-occupied and weaker than you, don't dress it up as some humanitarian effort to save the poor, beleaguered skeletons of Ermor.

We of T'ien Ch'i want our end to come openly and if our opponent can't or won't deign to engage in open discourse then we will have no compunctions in airing dirty laundry or condemning them through diplomatic channels. At this point, all we have are words, spite and a trio of forts (one of which is under siege).

We never told We do this out of humanity.
Ulm will remember Our short discussion of this.
We told him Jotun is getting too strong, and asked what we should do against it.
His proposal was seizing Ermorian provinces as long as it was still possible.
We had our doubts, would have preferred to aid Ermor with money, gems and diplomacy. Next turn Ermor declared its own death and we tried to scavenge from their remains what we could. TC and Jotun viciously defended their prey diplomatically. When Ermor showed vital signs again, We corrected Our mistake and opted for assistance of Ermor. That was the only moment when We changed the course of Our actions drastically.
We never said this was out of humanity, it is an action to contain Jotun expansion. In all this T'ien Ch'i didn't play a big role in our calculations, as We, no offense, just don't see them as a threat.

All told, Man has never broken it's word, and that is more than there is to say of T'ien Ch'i:

Quote:Originally Posted by triqui

Jotun and TC made a treaty with me about borders. They planned to attack me. Tien chi told me Jotun had a plan against me. He offered to join me and betray Jotun for 400g. I paid, and in the next turn both attacked me. I felt wronged by TC. I paid for something, and I got cheated.

[Olm]

Originally Posted by Morla

Interesting diplomatic talk.

The nation of Ulm, declares the NAP-3 between Man-Ulm finished.

The intentions from man aren´t clear, and it seems Man is going for the win.

Man you have 3 months to stop your invasion of T'ien Ch'i, and let that T'ien Ch'i and Ermor fix their own situation. If not YOU and I will be enemies.

Well, We thought our long friendship would account for more, than the sweet cheaptalking from the ruler of some backwood wannabe empire.
We do not take well to threats, but in appreciation of our friendship we will think about it and inform you in due time.

[SpaceViking21]

Originally Posted by Olm

Well, We thought our long friendship would account for more, than the sweet cheaptalking from the ruler of some backwood wannabe empire.

I'm sure T'ien thought similarly.

[shatner]

Originally Posted by Olm

Well, We thought our long friendship would account for more, than the sweet cheaptalking from the ruler of some backwood wannabe empire.

Ad hominem, much? It is true that we of T'ien Ch'i are small, weak and likely not long for this world. However, our decline is not because of some moral deficiency, nor is our talk any "cheaper" because of our low province-count.

We fell so low because we joined up against the preeminent power of the time, shouldering the majority of the cost, loss and risk of hobbling Ermor, while Man was off fighting a far lesser foe and biding their time. We would have risen back up but we were ultimately denied the fruits of our labor by Man's intervention.

There are only two things that went wrong for T'ien Ch'i: Ermor fighting the good fight all the way down and Man jumping up and down on us after the fact. We are backwater because of you so we find your indictment somewhat silly.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by SpaceViking21

I'm sure T'ien thought similarly.

HEY! I was a real empire. Once upon a time.

[SpaceViking21]

Originally Posted by triqui

HEY! I was a real empire. Once upon a time.

I was more talking about Man, but I guess that works for you as well.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by SpaceViking21

I was more talking about Man, but I guess that works for you as well.

Oh, I thought you meant when I was crying for help like a baby. Bassically what Tien Chi is doing now .

I don't get all the fuss about this . It's obvious that T'Chi is going to try anything to convince Ulm to attack Man, for the same reasons I tried everything I could to get Man involved in the war too. And Ulm will enter in the war (or not), when he finds it suitable to his own interests, using Tien Chi as an excuse of cassus belli. But the real reason to attack Man (or not doing so) would be his chances to win the game doing so. Exactly like Man did with my ask. Which is exactly what I would had done if I were in Ulm's (or Man's) position. And I suspect Tien Chi (or anyone else) would do the same too. Everything else is hypcr... err... diplomacy I mean.

[SpaceViking21]

Originally Posted by triqui

Oh, I thought you meant when I was crying for help like a baby. Bassically what Tien Chi is doing now .

I don't get all the fuss about this . It's obvious that T'Chi is going to try anything to convince Ulm to attack Man, for the same reasons I tried everything I could to get Man involved in the war too. And Ulm will enter in the war (or not), when he finds it suitable to his own interests, using Tien Chi as an excuse of cassus belli. But the real reason to attack Man (or not doing so) would be his chances to win the game doing so. Exactly like Man did with my ask. Which is exactly what I would had done if I were in Ulm's (or Man's) position. And I suspect Tien Chi (or anyone else) would do the same too. Everything else is hypcr... err... diplomacy I mean.

Of course, all diplomacy in Dominions 3 is a farce. We're just busting Man because he's only giving the barest lip service to a coherent casus belli and (to me at least) sounds like he's putting lipstick on a landgrab rather than putting together a reasonable foreign policy.

To put it another way, everyone in Dominions 3 is after one thing. To win. Therefore, the worst possible thing you can do is make it look like you're going for the win now. You want to dress up your intentions and slowly work until you can't be stopped any more, rather than put all your chips on the table and make yourself the guy to beat. Had Man stuck to one gun (Limiting me or the stability of Ermor), any diplomacy myself or Tien tried would be our word vs theirs, at least as far as trying to start a bigger war. However, using both makes him seem duplicitous, like he's already decided what he's going to do and now he's just putting a dress on it for a night on the town, especially when the results of both actions are basically the same (taking my land on the island, or taking my land on the island and going further). It's hard to make yourself seem trustworthy when your actions aren't consistent with your words, and are instead consistent with the ultimate goal.

tl;dr version: Diplomacy in this game is ultimately a joke, but not playing the game at all, or playing it badly can be viewed as a threat.

[shatner]

Here here! Well said.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by SpaceViking21

Of course, all diplomacy in Dominions 3 is a farce. We're just busting Man because he's only giving the barest lip service to a coherent casus belli and (to me at least) sounds like he's putting lipstick on a landgrab rather than putting together a reasonable foreign policy.

To put it another way, everyone in Dominions 3 is after one thing. To win. Therefore, the worst possible thing you can do is make it look like you're going for the win now. You want to dress up your intentions and slowly work until you can't be stopped any more, rather than put all your chips on the table and make yourself the guy to beat. Had Man stuck to one gun (Limiting me or the stability of Ermor), any diplomacy myself or Tien tried would be our word vs theirs, at least as far as trying to start a bigger war. However, using both makes him seem duplicitous, like he's already decided what he's going to do and now he's just putting a dress on it for a night on the town, especially when the results of both actions are basically the same (taking my land on the island, or taking my land on the island and going further). It's hard to make yourself seem trustworthy when your actions aren't consistent with your words, and are instead consistent with the ultimate goal.

tl;dr version: Diplomacy in this game is ultimately a joke, but not playing the game at all, or playing it badly can be viewed as a threat.

Well, maybe Man casus belli is doubtious. Fine, I'll accept that. So what? Ulm is not going to attack (or not to attack) Man based on his cassus belli. He is going to attack him if he feels doing so increase his chances to win. If he feels his chances to win are increased by waiting (to get X research, to see if you and Tien Chi attrition Man, or maybe to conquer Pythium first), he will wait. And his own farce of a casus belli is also stupid, in my humble opinion.

When he said "if Man's intentions are to stabilize Ermor we won't intervene", I almost laughed. If he care about Ermor future, he could act himself. He didn't, becouse he couldn't care less. He cares, as everybody does (and as everybody should), about his own goals.

Trying to represent otherwise is part of the farce, which we all play. It's a role we play, in this hypocresy game we call diplomacy. Which is fine, is a nice and fun aspect of the game, which I'm learning and enjoying (my previous MP game, with my friends, have different diplomacy, becouse we know each other, and often we play by groups, in two bands). But sometimes I find a little bit hilarious all this comedy, this talk about friendship, and all of that. Ulm will attack Man when he feels it will work. Be it in three turns, or twenty.


Everybody tries to achieve his goals. Mine is seeing Jotunheim and Tien Chi defeated before Ermor. Tien Chi goal seems to be hurting Man as much as he can. Man and Ulm should go for ultimate victory. And you and Pythium would try to ride the wave and wait for a chance, which currently don't have. Simulating anything else is just part of the show.