Fixes for the iraqi OOB

[Marcello]

316 OT-64C SKOT - was there really such Iraqi variant of Skot with Malutka missiles? There were known photos of such Polish vehicles, but missiles were only mock-ups, and they didn't became operational.

No idea. I would suspect it is just a carryover from polish OOB or whatever other OOB the OT-64 were picked from. The armored threat on the iranian front was less than in Europe to warrant such, though still present.

Possible addition:
MT-LB /2B9 mortar - like Soviet unit #591 MT-LB Vasilek. Used in 1991 (seen on photos).

As noted, not enough weapon slots left to add any odd little used weapon. While there are some unused or redundant weapons in addition to those one has to be careful to overwrite them with something not too dissimilar, least they screw up already existing scenarios.

[Pibwl]

049 Vickers Mk.6b - I've checked, and only 88 Vickers Mk.VIc were made, with some 900 Mk.VIb, so VIb is more probable. But I wouldn't suspect, that Iraqi weapons file is so crowded...

065 BRM-1 - I see. However, number of troops carried might be lowered and we could create some nice formation with scout vehicles and scouts (I haven't noticed such unit).

As for BRM-1K export, Russian sources say, that they were exported "mainly" to Warsaw Pact countries - so we can't be sure :-) However, Poland and CS received them only in late 80s.

281 BA-64 - I think it can be removed. They were withdrawn from the Soviet Army by mid-50s and would be rather worn-out, while they could export newly produced BTR-40.

As for BRDM-2 with 23 mm gun - I think we could add one. Authors like Zaloga write about "some" vehicles rearmed, so I think it's worth adding, even if there were few.

316 OT-64C SKOT - I think, we can safely remove this one.

Further thoughts:

225 BRDM-1 Shmel - I'm pretty sure, that Iraq hadn't them, but I can't prove it :-( A Russian page http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_2p27.htm says, that they were exported to Warsaw Pact countries, but it is known, that Cuba had them as well. I've read somewhere, that BRDM with Shmel were never used in combat. Anyway, proper picture is 29057.

227 BRDM-2 Konkurs - proper pic is 29253. According to Russian sources, it carries 15 missiles (now: 10).

Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

049 Vickers Mk.6b - I've checked, and only 88 Vickers Mk.VIc were made, with some 900 Mk.VIb, so VIb is more probable. But I wouldn't suspect, that Iraqi weapons file is so crowded...

The problem is not as much whether it was b or c, if you have identified them as b variant it could be indeed changed to such (though it should be noted that even relatively rare equipment made to Iraq such as at least one M13 tank and a german SPG) as I did not identify the subtype, as to what the iraqis actually armed them with. From what I read at the time they were rearmed with what could be fitted as original armament had been removed.

As for weapon slots, there are only six available slots left, of which a couple ought to be earmarked for ATGMs, one might be taken by a PGM for the to be supplied F-16s and another by the S-8 rockets. Anything else will have to come from overwriting redundant weapons, which has to be done with prudence, least you end up with off map artillery armed with ATGMs or some such in older game scenarios.
As for why this is the case remember that Iraq has purchased both western and eastern gear.

065 BRM-1 - I see. However, number of troops carried might be lowered and we could create some nice formation with scout vehicles and scouts (I haven't noticed such unit).
As for BRM-1K export, Russian sources say, that they were exported "mainly" to Warsaw Pact countries - so we can't be sure :-) However, Poland and CS received them only in late 80s.

Formation 295 contains six scout teams and six scout vehicles, which can be chosen from all the available class 32 vehicles: BRDM-2 clone, BRM-1, M60P light APC, jeeps etc...
As for availability remember that the iraqis paid in hard currency, so if they wanted something that was cleared for export they could usually (though not always and not all of the time) get it. I was not aware of the reduced ammo load or the extent of the reduction in carried dismounts.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

The problem is not as much whether it was b or c, if you have identified them as b variant it could be indeed changed to such (though it should be noted that even relatively rare equipment made to Iraq such as at least one M13 tank and a german SPG) as I did not identify the subtype, as to what the iraqis actually armed them with. From what I read at the time they were rearmed with what could be fitted as original armament had been removed.

The real point is this was an educated guess based on scant information of an EXTREMELY minor vehicle so let's not spend any more time on it becasue we are perfectly happy with it being armed with the 15mm Besa and the effect on gameplay if changed would be more in the mind than reality and I've already corrected the photo .
OK ??

Don

[Pibwl]

049 Vickers Mk.6b

Originally Posted by DRG

...EXTREMELY minor vehicle so let's not spend any more time on it becasue we are perfectly happy with it being armed with the 15mm Besa and the effect on gameplay if changed would be more in the mind than reality...

That's what I wanted to say as well

As for BRDM Konkurs (9P148) - Russian sources ("Otechestvennye protivotankovye kompleksy" 2002 book) say, that it carries 15 Konkurs OR 10 Konkurs and 10 Fagot missiles.

As for BMD, this is a complicated matter... I don't say it should be changed, but just for information: according to Russian sources, BMD-1, 2 and 3 can carry only 5 troops (incl. commander) + driver + gunner. I can attach a cross-section of BMD-1, which shows three seats behind a turret and two beside a driver (operating machine guns). So it seems, that Russian BMD section in reality has only 5 men - and BTR-D in that case carries two sections (10 men).

Regards
Michal

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for BMD, this is a complicated matter... I don't say it should be changed, but just for information: according to Russian sources, BMD-1, 2 and 3 can carry only 5 troops (incl. commander) + driver + gunner. I can attach a cross-section of BMD-1, which shows three seats behind a turret and two beside a driver (operating machine guns). So it seems, that Russian BMD section in reality has only 5 men - and BTR-D in that case carries two sections (10 men).

Regards
Michal

Carry capacity is somewhat an abstract affair. For example in real life you could split an infantry squad between two armored Humwees, in the game it is not possible.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

Carry capacity is somewhat an abstract affair. For example in real life you could split an infantry squad between two armored Humwees, in the game it is not possible.

Yes, but this is rather not the case with APC's, for practical reasons. Besides, it would make some sense with 10-men squads, carried by two IFVs, not with 6-men ones. Even in that case, a squad would probably consist of two relatively independent 5-men sections, each with RPG and LMG.

But, as I've said, I'm not insisting it should be changed - it's just for information (and decision).

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

535 BMD-1 - Russian sources all say it carries 3 Malutka missiles, not 4. It could carry only 5 troops (+2 crew) - same for Russian

Michal

The missles had already been corrected but the 2 crew/ 6 passengers for BMD-1 will will remain unchanged. They have that standard across all OOB's that use that vehicle.

Don