German OOB 16: minor corrections

[DRG]

now 1

[DRG]

It looks like Wiki is using Ivanov's numbers. 8 seems more likely but this info has me questioning the sabot range given in the game. It would appear in game terms the weapon range should be 20 not 25 and the sabot range 10

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

It looks like Wiki is using Ivanov's numbers. 8 seems more likely but this info has me questioning the sabot range given in the game. It would appear in game terms the weapon range should be 20 not 25 and the sabot range 10

It's a squeeze bore weapon with only APCNR available as anti-tank ammunition. I don't know what kind of sights the gun had, but extrapolated from Gander & Chamberlain data it should be able to penetrate about 10mm still at 1500 meters (49mm even at 800 meters, which is their last data point; I extrapolated linearly from 600, 700 and 800 meter numbers). APCNR projos had quite good external ballistics due to high sectional density and relatively low drag (unlike APCR/HVAP) and were similar to post-WW2 APDS projectiles in that regard.

These are the Gander & Chamberlain numbers; first column is range in meters, second is penetration at 0 degrees and third column at 30 degrees:

100 94 69
200 86 65
300 79 60
400 72 56
500 66 52
600 60 48
700 54 44
800 49 41

I don't know where Wiki gets their "effective range". It might be the historically preferred engagement range, which however is not at all the same thing as effective range. In general the whole concept is rather poorly defined; for example AT rifles typically had an "effective range" of about 500-600 meters against their primary targets (= tanks), but they were useful against light armor (armored cars and APCs) and unarmored vehicles at much longer ranges.

For example the Boys ATR had sights to 500 meters only (300m in later versions), but the gunners compensated by aiming at the top of the target instead of center if they had to shoot at longer ranges. The flat trajectory (i.e. low drop) of the bullet made that quite effective when shooting vehicle-sized targets (target height 1.5 meters or more). Many other ATRs even had sights to 1000-1500 meters just for plinking light armor and unarmored targets, even though fire against tanks was usually opened no further than at 300 meters and often much closer.

[Pibwl]

On the other hand, in spite of small caliber, it used HE shells (relatively long - http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum6/p064.jpg), so maybe it should be more than HEK 1.

According to Russian Natzvaladze (although probably basing upon some other source), ROF was 12-15 RPM, so it was quite big for a single-shot weapon. Also he gives penetration "at the attack angle of 60deg.": 60mm at 100 m, 19mm at 1000 m.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

On the other hand, in spite of small caliber, it used HE shells (relatively long - http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum6/p064.jpg), so maybe it should be more than HEK 1.

According to Russian Natzvaladze (although probably basing upon some other source), ROF was 12-15 RPM, so it was quite big for a single-shot weapon. Also he gives penetration "at the attack angle of 60deg.": 60mm at 100 m, 19mm at 1000 m.

Those penetrations numbers are the same as given by Chamberlain, Doyle & Jentz in "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War
Two". They also give 40mm at 500 meters (same angle). I did make a stupid error in my earlier extrapolation; correctly extrapolated penetration at muzzle would be 65mm at 30 degrees from those numbers.

In any case, good approximation of the data in game would be either AP Penetration 9 with range 30 if we go by Hogg, Gander & Chamberlain or Penetration 8 with same range if we go by Chamberlain, Doyle & Jentz. Range less than 30 gives too low numbers at 800-1000 meters. If Sabot is used, penetration 8 is clearly better since the Sabot calculations have more randomness at close ranges (by APCALC), but the range should IMHO still be 30.

As for the HE kill; for single shot weapons HE kill is standardized to 1 from 20mm to 39mm. The actual shell had only 5g of PETN explosive, so unless the fragmentation was really optimal, it would not have been very effective, anyways.

[Pibwl]

286 Panzerturm PzV - it is commonly known as Pantherturm - maybe it's a better name?

[DRG]

I do love the way things like this take on a life of their own and spin off in unpredictable ways.

Looking at the production dates and what we have in the game I have to question these three units....

166 - SdKfz 250/11 - uClass 032 : slot 1 - Available 01/043 to 12/046
218 - SdKfz 251/10a - uClass 125 : slot 1 - Available 01/043 to 12/046
832 - SdKfz 221/2 - uClass 240 : slot 1 - Available 07/043 to 12/046

they must have been very very rare past the beginning of 1944 which means one or two of those units might be deleted but that should give some of you something to investigate for me and the first thing would be when the SdKfz 250/11 with the 2.8 was in service.

Also, I will be revising some ammo numbers based on Culver and Feist's info. The number of rounds for the 37mm and 28mm versions is far too low in the game and the revision will make them far more potent


OK,----- reading the text of the book says that mounting the PzB41 was a "common" modification early in the war on a stock SdKfz 250/1 simply by replacing the Mg34 mount at the front of the fighting compartment and it goes on to say that the PzB41 was phased out of service because of the Tungsten shortage but "Isolated examples lasted long enough to be mounted in the 251/1 Ausf D which appeared in the fall of 1943."



Don

[DRG]

That radio code would only cause the AI to skip over this unit IF the AI bought a formation that used unit 648's unitclass but the AI does not buy any of those formations when it picks an opposing force so the radio code in this case is totally irrelevant

Don

[Pibwl]

Hello,

Sorry to bother you so quickly, but I've found a quite important bug, concerning the most popular German tank in 1939. Now, unit 002 can't be bought in 1939 at all and we have only pre-series Pz II a/b/c with weaker armour and rare Pz II D available then.

002 PzKw II C - it should be available from 1937, as in a previous release (in fact, II C entered production in 6/38, but it could represent all "standard model" II A/B/C, produced from 7/37).
BTW, hull armour was 14.5mm all around in fact.

005 PzKw II J - it has radio=82 in the game, while there were only 22 made - very rare specialized recce tank.

215 PzKw II D - very rare variant (43 made), radio=3 would be more appropriate (Jentz/Doyle write, that there it is unclear, if they saw action at all). Hull sides and rear were 14.5mm in fact (front was 30 mm).

388 PzKw II C - now it's available since 1/41, and differs from 002 with KwK38 gun only. It should rather represent the most common model during French campaign, with 20mm applique armour in hull's and turret's front. Basic armour was 14.5mm all around. Also, Jentz/Doyle mention only KwK30 guns as an armament of Pz II C, so it might be rearmed this way (like unit 002), uparmoured and made available from 5/40.

834 PzKw II a/b/c - entered service in spring of 1936 according to Jentz/Doyle (produced from 5/36) (now: 7/37). It might have been confused with standard A/B/C, but a picture and weak armour indicate pre-series a/b/c (in fact, c had a new suspension, but tactically it was the same).
It was rare variant, and radio=1 would be more appropriate (now radio=2) - there were 75 a, 25 b and a small number of c, comparing to over 1000 A/B/C.

BTW: weapons 88 PzB 39 ATR and 137 PzB M.SS.41 have amazing accuracy of 34, much better then other AT rifles - is it justified? The later one also has warhead=2, while it should be 1 (7.62mm)

Michal

[DRG]

Have I not made it clear enough that we have no intention of issuing any patch or correction any time soon Michal ? So yes, all you've done is "bother me so quickly" for no purpose and I have no intention of reply to any of this because I have MORE THAN ENOUGH REAL LIFE ISSUES TO DEAL WITH ATM........ to sit down and start going though another one of your lists so end it now

I cannot even begin to tell you politely how both Andy and I feel about the incessant OOB nit picking that went on before the last patch so DO NOT even think about starting up again.

Don