German OOB 16: minor corrections

[Mobhack]

This tank-net thread has some info on the L46 and 48 velocities in amongst the L/70 etc discussions: http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...c=37158&page=5 at about post 92 on.

If you can make some sense of that (the figures are all over the place, and the charge seems also to have been de-rated in the later war), and then put some argument re the game figures from official documentation and so on and so forth then we may have a change. Otherwise things will likely remain the same.

Andy

[Mario_Fr]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

This tank-net thread has some info on the L46 and 48 velocities in amongst the L/70 etc discussions: http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.p...c=37158&page=5 at about post 92 on.

If you can make some sense of that (the figures are all over the place, and the charge seems also to have been de-rated in the later war), and then put some argument re the game figures from official documentation and so on and so forth then we may have a change. Otherwise things will likely remain the same.

Andy

Well, I`ve read the tank-net thread and you`re right, it`s quite confusing.
Before giving another figures and quoting sources (which is actually like opening a fight of numbers) I have to admit that my knowledge is based on one primary source (Wolfgang Fleischer, Gepanzerte Feuerkraft. Die deutschen Kampfwagen-, Panzerjäger- und Sturmkanonen, 2004), but tarrif.net and Rexford Bird / Livingston are confirming it.

In Fleischer`s book is a description of the two cartridge cases (100 x 716mm for the Pak 40 and 111,5 x 495,1mm for KwK 40 L43 and L48) and the weight of the propellant (2795g for Pak 40 and 2520g for KwK 40). Also there`s a picture showing the two cartidges side by side.

Looking at all the different numbers it seems that there are two different opinions.

First: KwK L43 and KwK L48 actually have the same pen-data using the same shell but Pak 40 has slightly better penetration (as stated by Fleischer, tarrif.net and Rexford Bird / Livingston (they even distinguish between the three of them but KwK L43 and L48 have only 2mm difference: KwK 40 L43-133mm; L48-135mm; Pak 40-146mm for 100m)

Second: no difference between KwK L48 and Pak 40 but KwK L43 has slightly less penetration (as it is in the game right now).

To be honest, I only knew the first opinion before, that Pak 40 has slightly better penetration. Official documentation is out of reach, but maybe someone can come up with it.

Mario

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Mario_Fr

Looking at all the different numbers it seems that there are two different opinions.

First: KwK L43 and KwK L48 actually have the same pen-data using the same shell but Pak 40 has slightly better penetration (as stated by Fleischer, tarrif.net and Rexford Bird / Livingston (they even distinguish between the three of them but KwK L43 and L48 have only 2mm difference: KwK 40 L43-133mm; L48-135mm; Pak 40-146mm for 100m)

Second: no difference between KwK L48 and Pak 40 but KwK L43 has slightly less penetration (as it is in the game right now).

To be honest, I only knew the first opinion before, that Pak 40 has slightly better penetration. Official documentation is out of reach, but maybe someone can come up with it.

Mario

The info I have shows this:

APCBC at 1,000 yds 30deg

StuK 40.......72mm (US Army Tech Manual 1945)
KwK 40 L43....72mm (Bovington Tank Museum)
KwK 40 L48....79mm (Bovington Tank Museum)
PaK 40.......102mm (US Army Tech Manual 1945)

NB. The US Army tech manual says there was no change in ballistic characteristics of the KwK 40 L43 and L48.

My 'Bovington' doc. (a friend gave it to me and said it came from Bovington) No idea what book or publication.









Cross

[Mario_Fr]

But the sheet VII-58 also gives a penetration of 72mm for 1000 yards for the L48 (right column, topic remarks).

in: ... 945.StuK40.jpg

Mario

[cbo]

Everybody, his uncle and his sons dog have figures for these guns and you can quote from the now until the end of history without really solving the issue. The solution to the problem lies, unfortunately, in the primary sources, i.e. those produced in context with the firing test, calculations and estimations of performance. And as far as I know, no one have managed to find anything conclusive on the matter of the many different muzzle velocities registered for these guns.

I dont want to discourage discussion, that always turns up some interesting snippets of information, but the issue of muzzle velocity is complex (conditions of test, propellant used, age and condition of ammunition used etc.) and the issue of penetration on top of that much more so.

But as long as the differences between figures amounts to less than 10%, it hardly matters in game terms.