Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:


375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks.

Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45

By the way: it's worth to change Troop to Platoon, to better fit Polish naming (pluton).



012 46 Tank Company
013 46 Tank Platoon - Available: 01/46-12/46

They seem to be on AI pick list in 1/46 - 12/46

Now it has 4 tanks - a template unit should be changed from a fictitious Centurion.
I think, that four 3-tank platoons will be more appropriate (now it has three 4-tank platoons) - seems, that 3 were standard in Great Britain, possibly with exception of added Fireflies.

Its availability should extend back from 11/44 - it would represent the 1st Arm.Div rearmed to Sherman IIA
In 1/46-12/46 it would also represent the 2nd Arm.Div (former Bde) deprived of Fireflies post-war (switched to diesel-only)

A small problem is, that in 6/44-12/45 the formations used in Western Europe and Italy were different (in Italy Fireflies were received only in 2/45, while in ETO the 1st Arm.Div had switched to uniform Sherman IIA platoons in 11/44). I suggest to solve it this way:

- unit #203 Sherman IIA [Gun tank] should be changed to Med tank with a radio code 2, available until 12/46 (now 12/45). (its usage as a Gun tank is wrong).
- formation 012 46 Tank Company should be the AI pick from 11/44. It will ignore usage of Firefly companies in Italy, but a primary theatre of operation was ETO, where Polish Shermans IIA could be met - and they also fulfilled occupation service in Germany post-war
- formation 375 44 Tank Sqdn should be picked by the AI in 6/44-10/44 only
- if unit 027 Sherman V is available after 11/44, it should have radio code changed to 0

Besides, it's worth to change Company to Sqdn, to better fit Polish naming (szwadron), and to remove "46" naturally.



190 Medium Tank - Available: 11/39-12/46
391 Medium Tank Sec - Available: 11/39-12/46
- concerning Polish tanks only, it should be available from 11/40. And they rather should be used in platoons by 3, not sections by 2.

257 Pel AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40
258 Esc AMC (DLM) - Available: 11/39-06/40
- formations of French tanks, to be removed.


377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44
378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42
379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44
- names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training, and the units in ME used Valentines all the time, while the units in the UK switched to cruisers in 6/42, so I suggest to rename it just Tank Squadron / Tank Platoon.

Formation 377 (with 2 CS tanks) should be extended to 1/45, to cover as far, as Sherman-armed 2nd Arm.Bde units before it got Fireflies.

Then, it should be on AI pick list in 1/44 - 5/44 (or maybe even earlier). It seems, that in this period, the AI buys 397 Inf Tk Sqdn, what makes us keep unit 16 Sherman I as an infantry tank. Maybe an OOB creator considered the 2nd Arm.Bde to be infantry tank unit, but I don't think it is the case, even if it was a part of the 2nd Corps and often fought together with infantry. IMO there's no need to introduce more units, than it's needed and duplicate Shermans as Med and Infantry tanks. Especially, that from 2/45 these Infantry tanks should be supplemented with Fireflies.
(BTW, unit 16 could be re-nationalized rather then deleted, since it may be used in some user scenarios.)


As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time, except for 5-6/40. In the last period, we could create an R-35 company, described earlier.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Further in units:

34 Priest - wasn't used by the Polish

37 Bishop - wasn't used by the Polish

Template unit in formation 82 SPA Troop should be 36 Sexton, and it should start at 1/44

43 Humber Mk IV - photo is MK.II/III (proper is 30121). Used by the Polish from 6/43 (now 1/44) - for training only

44 Daimler A/C - used in 8/42-10/43 (now 1/43-5/44) - for training only

45 Staghound (precisely, Staghound I) - used from around 9/43 (now 6/44), radio should be 92 (common).

61 2 pdr AA-Gun - never heard of such gun in Polish units. Should be replaced with ordinary 40 mm Bofors.

104 Hurricane II - precisely IIc (with 20 mm guns).

I assume, that the aircraft don't have to be from Polish RAF squadrons (which had no operational independence), but rather a general RAF air support? (eg. Polish squadrons had no Typhoons)

125 VC Firefly [Med tank, 1946] - to be removed - Fireflies weren't used as Med tanks in that period.

128 4.7in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 120mm Naval Gun

129 6in Naval Gun - in Polish it should be 152mm Naval Gun (I assume it's allied general support)

130 VC Firefly [Tank destroyer] - I'm not sure, if it's a proper class...
We could alternatively create a platoon of three Class 59 Gun Tanks, available in 6/44-12/46, in case a player wanted to use such support.

131 Archer - received only around 12/44 (9/44), radio code should be 91

132 M10 17 pdr - radio should be 92 (now 91) - it was a basic equipment in ETO.

There should be also basic M10 3in added - since 11/43 until 6/45, radio 90.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:


375 44 Tank Sqdn
376 44 Tank Troop - available: 06/44-12/45 (OK)

They seem to be on AI pick list in 06/44 - 12/45

Now a troop has 3 tanks and a Firefly, like a British troop. Magnuski writes about three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly. He might be wrong, though I can't find a reliable source on British tank troops in 1944 - some web pages say 3 tanks, some 4 tanks.

Such Firefly troops were used by the 1st Arm.Div. in Western Europe in 6/44-10/44, and by the 2nd Arm.Bde. in Italy in 2/45-12/45

"three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly"........... including a firefly WHAT ? tank ? Platoon ?. It appears you are saying these should be two tanks plus a firefly instead of 3+1 but it could also be you are saying one of the platoons was pure firefly and therefore there should be three tank platoons plus a firefly platoon

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

"three-tank troops INCLUDING a Firefly"........... including a firefly WHAT ? tank ? Platoon ?.

I mean a troop of 2 Shermans and a Firefly. Sorry for not being clear.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

It might be noted, that in 11/39 - 2/40 and 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only (in UK and Egypt/Palestine).

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Complex suggestions as for formations including Med tanks (post-1939). I hope to make them clear:

-snip


377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 09/42-05/44
378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn - Available: 07/40-08/42
379 Cruiser Tk Trp - Available: 07/40-05/44
- names are not appropriate, for they also use Valentines (even as a template unit). Before 4/44 Polish tanks were used for training,

-snip



As for period from 11/39 until 12/43, it seems, that the AI buys an allied French or British infantry tank company. It seems quite reasonable, for there were no Polish tank units in field at that time,

-snip


Michal

there are now NO Polish armour between, as you say "11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only "

I'm not building training tank formations for Poland. Sorting this all out so it all works at the end is PITA and I am not the least bit interested in doing it again next year so I hope you're happy with what you end up with since you have given me the "Polish tanks were used for training only between 11/40 - 3/44 more than once so that's what you're getting. The AI will be picking allied formations and a human player can pick allied if they need armour during the interm and I'm ripping out everything post the fall of France that isn't used by a line unit starting 4/44.


Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

I'm not building training tank formations for Poland. Sorting this all out so it all works at the end is PITA and I am not the least bit interested in doing it again next year so I hope you're happy with what you end up with since you have given me the "Polish tanks were used for training only between 11/40 - 3/44 more than once so that's what you're getting. The AI will be picking allied formations and a human player can pick allied if they need armour during the interm and I'm ripping out everything post the fall of France that isn't used by a line unit starting 4/44.

Don

As you wish, though I can't say I'm happy with it.
I think, that with minor tweaks they could stay - it would be pity to throw all Crusaders, Valentines, Churchills II. In case of invasion on the UK they would have been used... what leads me to a thought, that Canadian Rams should be thrown out for the same reason (BTW: Polish 1st Arm.Div. on Crusaders took part in great manoeuvres against Canadian 4th Arm.Div. on Rams).

Leave Panzer IIIs and M3 Stuarts at least - they were very close to see action in Middle East.