Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

349 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with wz.28 LMG.

350 Partisan MG - I'm attaching a proposed picture of a Polish partisan with German MG (it would also better fit for unit 347, than a current one)

352 Part. Mortars - picture shows 82mm mortar. I'm attaching a picture for Polish 46mm GL.

A word about formations:
form. 342 Gwardia Ludowa, 343 GL Partisan Co - since 1/44 its name was Armia Ludowa (AL). Gwardia Ludowa existed since 5/42, so we should add earlier formations with this name.

It seems from morale & experience modifier, that somebody liked communist GL and despised rightist NSZ (formation 344)

- well, I don't like nationalist and grossly anti-Semitic partisans either, but -10 penalty in morale & experience isn't justified, neither is +5 in case of GL, which were no better, than the rest. Since Poland has high base morale 75, IMO it's enough for partisans as well.
The partisans had limited possibility of training, so as for experience (with base level 70), I would say, that GL and NSZ partisans should have -10, AK partisans (best organized, form. 340, 341) -5 (=average level 65, eg. of Yugoslavian partisans).


364 Carrier HMG was in fact not a scout vehicle, but an infantry support vehicle, used in separate platoons (4-6 HMG carriers). And they were introduced to the British (and Polish) army only in 1943/44 (now 7/40).
I'm attaching a proposed improved picture of a vehicle in actual configuration - for all countries (a current one looks like some makeshift, with a shielded HMG)


368 Polski Fiat 508 [utility veh.] - picture is 2-seater Italian variant, I'm attaching a correct one.
It could be AT wheel class - it was 4x2, but it had some off-road capabilities (like German Kubelwagen).
Precisely, they were produced from 1935 (1/30).
Earlier, a Ford T could be used.

369 Polski Fiat 618 [APC wheel] - used from 1937 only (now 1/30).
Formations 263, 264 Lt Truck Sec, Plt (Available: 01/30-12/46) should be corrected then (I don't think we need such unit earlier, medium trucks should be enough)

370 Polski Fiat 621 [med truck] - picture is generic SP-1 Renault truck, I'm attaching a proper one.
It was produced from 1932 only (1/30) (earlier there should be #360 Ursus A).


374 30cwt GS Truck [med truck] - 30cwt trucks were rather rare in wartime British and Polish armies, especially in combat units. Maybe 375 Bedford should be re-classified to med truck instead (commonly used in field), especially, that it is used only in two Heavy Truck formations.

375 Bedford - much closer for Bedford QL is icon 674 in SPMBT (same for British oob). If it represents Bedford QL, it should be AT/wheel. Maybe it should be made a Medium Truck - if so, a data of Bedford should be changed to correspond with a Medium Truck (we have already #383 heavy truck in this period).

376 3t Chevy 157 [heavy truck] - it might be called Chevrolet 157 (Chevy abbreviation wasn't known in Poland). It was used only from 1/39 (1/30). In fact it was medium truck, the same class, as Polski Fiat 621 - and it was faster (80 km/h - now speed 15).
If we need Heavy Truck formations 267,268 before 1939, we could create Berliet CBA (up to 35 km/h) - I'm attaching a photo.

381 15cwt GS Truck - much more common, than pictured Chevrolet C15 CMP was Bedford MW (picture 30123) or Fordson WOT2


384 Humber Gun Quad - correct name is Morris Quad FAT naturally, if we want to name a manufacturer (could also be Ford or Chevrolet FGT/CGT).


387 Bunkier - photo 29710 looks much more like Polish bunker (which is in fact, because I did this picture myself long ago )


400 37mm AT-Gun - introduced only in mid-1936 (now 1/30).
If we need to feel a gap, #399 37mm wz.18 might be used as AT-gun in 1930-35 (though in fact, there were no AT-guns in Poland at that time at all). On the other hand, during a French period more modern guns were used (below).
Name 37mm wz.18 should be supplemented with "gun", because it was not a standalone mark designation.

401 25mm AT-Gun - radio should be 2(1) - it was standard AT gun in France.

402 47mm AT-Gun - photo is a Japanese gun, and armament is 47mm Bohler. It should be a French gun (weapon #21 47mm SA37 (L53) from French oob), picture 203, radio=0.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

A word about formations:
form. 342 Gwardia Ludowa, 343 GL Partisan Co - since 1/44 its name was Armia Ludowa (AL). Gwardia Ludowa existed since 5/42, so we should add earlier formations with this name.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gwardia Ludowa be moved to spob09 Polish Communists/LWP?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Polish LWP basically "grow out" of the Gwardia Ludowa? If so, then I think the pre-1944 partisan forces are already in that OOB.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by zastava128

Wouldn't it be better that the Gwardia Ludowa be moved to spob09 Polish Communists/LWP?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Polish LWP basically "grow out" of the Gwardia Ludowa? If so, then I think the pre-1944 partisan forces are already in that OOB.

You are partly right - Gwardia Ludowa (later Armia Ludowa - People Guards/Army) were communist partisans, conceived in Moscow. In July 1944 it officially merged with the 1st Polish Army in the USSR, creating so-called LWP (Polish People Army - it wasn't an official name however, official was just Polish Army).
(A distinction may be unclear, but there are other words for army as a military unit - "armia", like the 1st Polish Army, and an army as armed forces - "wojsko", although "armia" is colloquially used also in the second meaning).

In my opinion, though, since GL/AL units operated in the country, there's no need to put them into a separate LWP OOB and treat as allies. The idea isn't bad, though.

By the way: a flag representing LWP, with a hammer and sickle, is a bit offensive, since it was never a sign of Polish communists, who used just a national flag. However, I have no better idea. Maybe there could be used Piast's eagle, used by the LWP on caps and badges, but a distinction may be hardly seen: http://histmag.org/grafika/articles6...ly5/kurica.png

On the other hand, ordinary Polish flag should have no eagle at all - a flag with eagle was used only as a merchant ensign and a flag of Polish official representatives abroad.

By the way: it could be noted, that despite both groups of partisan movement were unfriendly, and regarded themselves as communist renegades vs fascists, fights between them were sporadic.

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

By the way: a flag representing LWP, with a hammer and sickle, is a bit offensive, since it was never a sign of Polish communists, who used just a national flag. However, I have no better idea.

Exactly, and nobody had a better idea when we first put it in either.

Don

[Pibwl]

However, it's worth IMO to remove eagle from the ordinary flag.

Back to suggestions:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

If we need to feel a gap, #399 37mm wz.18 might be used as AT-gun in 1930-35 (though in fact, there were no AT-guns in Poland at that time at all). On the other hand, during a French period more modern guns were used (below).
Name 37mm wz.18 should be supplemented with "gun", because it was not a standalone mark designation.

I should have added, that 37mm Puteaux was indeed used in a small numbers as an infantry gun in Poland - and its designation in towed version was in fact wz.16. It was withdrawn by 1929, so we can use it only if AI needs to have AT guns.

335 CKM wz.30 Pl - radio should be 22 - it was a standard weapon (or 32, since HMGs 406, 407, 408 have radio=30).

403 120mm How - should be 120mm Gun or Canon (eventually "armata" in Polish - in lower case). Better icon is 2116 - it was rather long-barrel piece (on a photo the barrel is in a transport position).
Radio should be 92(91) - it was a rare gun.

407 CKM wz.10 Pl - should be wz.10/28. They were withdrawn by the end of 1936 (sold probably to Spain).

408 CKM wz.25 Pl - it should be original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss rather (there were still 2600 wz.14 in 1939 and only 1200 of wz.25, half of them as TMGs).

Weapon #121 should have kill=5 like weapon #100 and should be named 8mm wz.25 HMG (or MMG - though in Poland all were classified as "heavy"). BTW, kill 7 of wz.28 MMG is not justified.

A word on HMG/MMG:

Most HMG/MMGs in the game have HE kill=5 (Vickers, Soviet Maxim, M1917, Mle.14), and I assume, that MG34 (8) and MG42 (10) are better due to higher ROF (some 800 rpm in case of MG34).

But German OOB #122 MG08/18 HMG, which has 6, should have HEK similar to other water-cooled MGs, or even lower, since its ROF is quoted at 300-450 rpm (Wikipedia says 450-500, German Wikipedia 400-450, which is also relatively low). For Vickers also 450-500 rpm is quoted, but for M1917: 450-600. Also for Polish wz.30 (a Browing clone) 600 rpm is given and it has HEK=6. For Russian Maxim 520-600 is given. [I mostly use WarMachine 97 Machine guns of WWI as a reference]

So, if 500 rpm = roughly 5 HEK, I think, that MG08 should have HEK=5, and there is a basis to increase HEK of Browning M1917 and wz.30 and possibly Russian Maxim to 6. On the other hand German MG08 could have increased accuracy due to its ultra-heavy sledge mount.

Returning back to the Polish:
weapon 123 7.92 wz.08 MMG should have HEK=5 (now 8), and it is HMG in fact.
weapon 124 7.92wz.10/28HMG - kill 9 is not justified at all - it should be 6 (Russian Maxim converted to 7.92mm)

Michal

[Pibwl]

1939 guns took me several days:


398 37mm wz.18 [inf gun] - name should be wz.16 and a secondary weapon should be French 112 Lebel

409 65mm Mtn Gun - ending date should be 10/39 (10/49, an evident typo). Radio should be 91(92) - very rare, used only by mountain units.

--------
75 mm artillery:
Only two types of 75mm pieces were used by the Polish by 1939, and both were field guns: wz.1897 (French) used by artillery regiments and wz.02/26 used by cavalry and in infantry regiments. None were specifically assigned to AT role.
You can read more at http://derela.republika.pl/artillery.htm

410 75mm Inf-Gun - as infantry gun, an ordinary 75mm wz.02/26 field gun was used, so a weapon (7.5cm leIG) should be replaced with #64 75mm vz.02 FG (differing in longer range).
If it's important: ammo load in limber and caisson in infantry units were 80 shells (plus 36 shells in caisson's limber).
Icon should be changed to 2111 (as unit 412 - longer barrel)
Speed 1 is correct - it could be pulled by the crew.

Weapon 064 75mm vz.02 FG - correct name is wz02/26 FG
It could receive Sabot round with pen=7, range=60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role).
Then, the gun can receive few Sabot rounds, although not necessarily.

Form. 338 Infantry Guns could be renamed to Infantry Gun Pl
Precisely, they should be given 6-horse limbers instead of wagons, but then the player could also choose inappropriate artillery tractors.
Maybe a limber could be doubled as a kind of wagon?

I'm attaching some proposed pictures of wz.02/26, for 32135 is hard to recognize. It could replace ugly 21172 - also for unit #412 below.

390 Fort - 7.5cm leIG should not be used in Poland at all.
Polish gun-armed fortifications were very rare, but probably first of all, original Russian 76mm wz.02 field guns were used there (without special mountings).
Weapon #32 7.5cm leIG could be therefore converted to 76mm wz.02 FG, with the same specs as #64 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26)

Otherwise, main armament of the fort should be just replaced with 064 75mm vz.02 FG (wz02/26).


411 100mm How - was used since 1/30 (now 1/35). Maybe we could use a full name Howitzer? (or Polish "haubica", in lower case).
Icon 2115 with a shorter barrel would be more appropriate IMO (2116 rather fits for #403 120mm gun)

412 75mm Howitzer - should be 75mm Field Gun or Canon (or Polish "armata") or 75mm wz02/26 FG.
In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 32 in a caisson's limber).

413 75mm Howitzer - same as above as for a name, but 75mm wz.1897 FG.
It should be used since 1930, being Polish most common field gun (now: only from 11/39).
Secondary weapon should be changed to Polish carbine 144 (even if it wasn't used in France - or we can create two units with different rifles to be precise).
In a limber and caisson, 96 shells were carried (plus 24 in a caisson's limber).
Icon should be 2112, as French OOB unit 28 (it had quite long barrel).
Better picture is 28018 or 23083 with wooden wheels - current one is French motorized version (same for unit #329 75mm FG Bty)

Weapon 033 75mm vz.97 FG - correct name is wz.1897.
Sabot range should be increased from 20 to 60, like weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG (75mm gun in AT role, shooting full AP shots).


414 75mm Field Gun [AT gun] - firstly, in Poland there were no 75mm field guns specifically assigned to AT role, they had no special sights (apart from a handful of guns) and there was little AP ammo available for them (20 per battery).
The same role could be fulfilled by 75mm Inf Gun or Howitzer above, with Sabot ammo, which would offer longer HE range (they would have to have less AP ammo - but it would expend its 8 AP rounds for first few targets anyway). In fact, 75 mm guns could destroy most tanks with HE in 1939.

If we decide to keep it as AT gun, it could be used since 1/30 (now: 1/35), and fill a gap before advent of 37mm ATG.
But then, wz.02/26 gun should be eventually replaced by much more numerous wz1897 FG (as above) - a name of weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG can be just changed without harm to other units using it (the river craft used wz.97 guns as well in fact).


In all 1939 guns, rifle should be replaced with shorter #144 carbine - it applies to units 399, 400, 403, 410, 411, 412, 414, 415, also to 405 wz.35 AT-Rifle

By the way: there was no weapon, like #221 wz.29 rifle at all. It should be eventually renamed to wz.98a Rifle (a modernized version of wz.98 Rifle), or changed in all units to #178 wz.98 Rifle.


391 Strongpoint - its weapon #55 75mm vz.02 DFG could be also exchanged to newly added 76mm wz.02 FG or 064 75mm wz.02/26 (like #390 Fort above). Such amount of AP rounds is wrong - it could be a handful at best.


416 120mm How Bty - it should receive fourth gun, and a proper name is 120mm Gun Bty.
Radio should be 91 (now 92) - it was very rare.

418 wz.25 AAMG [2] - it should be wz.14 (see remarks for 408 CKM wz.25 Pl).
Hotchkiss AAMGS were mainly used in stationary AA defence (along with wz.08 Maxims), but in infantry units a standard was wz.30 HMG on convertible AA mount, which should be added as new weapon (it should be also an armament of #548 Taczanka).

420 13.2mm AAMG - there were few used, by the Navy, on stationery naval mounts, in coastal defence. To be removed IMO.

423 194mm Gun Bty - it must be French allied support, but more probable would be a support of ordinary 155mm GPF guns (unit 220 in French oob, with changed class).

[Pibwl]

Promised 75mm wz.02/26 pictures.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

408 CKM wz.25 Pl - it should be original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss rather (there were still 2600 wz.14 in 1939 and only 1200 of wz.25, half of them as TMGs).

Weapon #121 should have kill=5 like weapon #100 and should be named 8mm wz.25 HMG (or MMG - though in Poland all were classified as "heavy"). BTW, kill 7 of wz.28 MMG is not justified.

Michal........perhaps you could explain why on one hand you are telling me that unit 408 should be the " original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss " then in the next line tell me to change weapon 121 to 8mm wz.25 HMG when unit 408 is the only unit weapon 121 is used in ?

[Pibwl]

I must have done it in case wz.25 MMG isn't removed - or I didn't check the users, only indicated what's wrong with this weapon...

edit: I probably made a mistake - it should be naturally 8mm wz.14, not wz.25. Sorry.

Unfortunately, the issue of Hotchkisses MMG in 1939 isn't well researched (and only in March there is announced a new book on the subject). What is sure is, that:
1) Hotchkiss was least popular MMG in 1939 (after wz.30 and Maxim wz.08), used probably only by some of second line Obrona Narodowa units and some militia,
2) wz.25 was less popular, than wz.14 (apart from TMG use).

BTW: the only #690 Renault NC-27 was armed with #12 37mm wz.18 L21, not TMG (ammo load like FT-17?).

Michal

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by DRG

Exactly, and nobody had a better idea when we first put it in either.

Don

What about this flag: http://flags.nava.org/images/poland/...oples_army.png

Again, it's not exclusively communist (save the crownless eagle), but it was historically used by them on some occasions.