Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for captured Italian guns, they might have been 100/17 howitzers, which seem popular at that time in North Africa.

To finish with 1939 armoured cars:

569 Wz.29 Ursus - they were built and given to the Army in 7/31 (now 1/30).
Speed could be 12 (35 km/h - now 11) - same for units 574, 671.

Armament of all wz.29 cars should be IMO reduced to gun and one TMG only.
The car officially had three MGs in the beginning, but a BMG was rear-facing, what made it useful in peculiar combat situations only.
Michal

The 100/17 was the standard divisional howitzer of the Regio Esercito since the 1920's. The Italians received a very large number of them as war reparations from former Austro-Hungarian countries and some were captured already during the war. They also made spare parts (including barrels) for them and during WW2 a number were possibly upgraded to longer L/22 barrel (at least ex-Polish 100/22 were used, but the information on the upgrade is inconclusive). So, it was common pretty much everywhere the Italians fought, so indeed it is quite likely that many were captured in North Africa by Allies.

The 100/17 was a little short-ranged by WW2 standards, but otherwise had good qualities (like most Skoda designs, one might add) and was well-liked by Italian artillerymen. The Italians liked the piece so much that it was upgraded twice after WW2, the second time in 1961 with a 105mm L/22 barrel capable of firing standard NATO ammunition. They were scrapped only after the end of the cold war. It must have been one of the longest lasting if not THE longest lasting WW1 artillery pieces anywhere.

Sorry about getting a little carried away; about the rear facing MGs of the wz. 29: such weapons were very common in the 1920s and 1930s armored cars. The rationale seems to have been that armored cars were likely to run into ambushes while reconnoitering and would be required to fight their way out with enemies on all sides. The rear driving positions, often with additional driver, were based on the same doctrine as well. Turning the cars around on narrow dirt roads was often impossible and going cross-country difficult with a 4x2 drive. Even the Italian AB 40/41 still retained those qualities out of inertia, while it was a modern design with much better cross-country mobility, and probably did not have much use for the rear driver in practice other than as an extra help in maintenance.

[Pibwl]

Aircraft:

585 LWS-4A Zubr - correct designation is LWS-6 Żubr (LWS-4A was used in old books and is now declared as wrong). This unit is however in fact redundant - a small series was built and assigned for training only, being inferior to PZL 37 Łoś, not used in combat.
BTW: it has no dedicated icon, but uses Potez 540.

587 PZL P-43 - should be PZL-43 (or PZL-43 Karas). They were produced in 1937 indeed, but for export only (now available from 10/37). Only in 9/39 two aircraft were pressed to Polish service and briefly used. It's rather "what if" unit, but in game terms its only advantage over PZL-23 Karas is 1 MG more, so it might be redundant (the players should rather not treat this plane as a standard one, for it would be inaccurate. Maybe it should be reclassified to 243 Ground attack and used in prototype formation?).

589 SPAD 61 C1 - it could also carry two #193 12kg bombs [book by A. Morgała]. Withdrawn from active use by end of 1931 (now 11/32).

590 SPAD 51 C1 - icon is typical PZL P fighter - better is 2906 (slightly larger, from some bomber, but with similar swept wings), eventually 2903.

592 PWS-A - used in units from 7/30 (now 1/30) until end of 1935 (now 12/34) [book by A. Morgała].

593 PWS-10 - used from mid-31 (now 1/31)

594 PZL P-7a - it was used in units only since spring 1933 (now: 10/32 for unit 594) [book by A. Morgała].

Precisely, units 592-594 used Vickers MGs converted to 7.9mm (earlier units: 7.7mm indeed)

602 PWS-26 - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg.
Speed should be max 3 (now 4) (217 km/h - it was a trainer)

603 Lublin R-XIIIA - proper icon is 2925 - all R-XIII, including early models, were camouflaged (as is visible on photos).

606 Lublin R-XIIIG - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg.
Speed should be only 2 (now 4) (175 km/h)

[Pibwl]

Aircraft - continued.


601 PWS-26 [AOP aircraft] - this in fact should be available since 9/39 only (now 1/37), because it was a trainer during a peacetime.
Same for 616 RWD-8

607-612 Fokker VII/3m - according to A. Morgała, military variant was named Fokker VIIm3W. In fact, max speed was only 185 km/h (now speed 3)

As for units 609 and 610, the sources don't give details as for its load (1000 kg), but it seems very doubtful, if Fokker could carry 300 kg bombs. 200 kg bombs were unknown in the Polish service at all.

464 PZL P-23A Karas - name should be just "PZL-23A Karas".
It was introduced to units from 9/36 (now 5/36).
MG should be #190 wz.33.
Due to weaker engine, more likely armament of A version would be 8x50 kg bombs rather, or 4x100, 4x50 max (now: 5x100, 4x50)

613-615 PZL P-23B Karas - name should be "PZL-23B Karas". B variant was introduced to units from spring 1937 (now 11/36)

9 bombs is too much, it could carry 8 big bombs only.
As for unit 613 it would be 6x100 kg and 2x50 kg (though practically used load was up to 600 kg)
As for unit 614 it would be 8x50 kg

There could be added variant with 24 x 12kg bombs, if it's useful.

Weapon 194 100kg Bomb could in fact be changed to 110 kg Bomb, which was its real mass according to a monograph on PZL-37 Łoś (they were German WW1 PuW bombs and Polish Ż wz.31)

Weapon 196 Myszka Bomb should be named ".. bombs", or in fact "bomblets".
BTW: all weapons "Bomb" could be renamed "Bomba" in Polish (like in Italian oob)

617 PZL L-2a - name was just PZL L-2. Precisely, used from 9/30 (now 1/30 - at that time, a prototype haven't flown yet)

618 RWD-14b Czapla - serial variant was named LWS Czapla. It was introduced to units from 5/39 (now 8/38)

619 LWS-3 Mewa - should be available from 9/39 only (7/39) - few introduced in a hurry after a start of war.


620-622 Farman Goliath - speed was 154 km/h, so it should be 2 (now 3). As for unit 622 - last were cancelled by 11/35 (now 12/36)

624, 625 Potez XXV A2, B2 - name of both bomber variants should be B2.
Morgała's book mentions max bomb load: 4x50 kg and 24x12 kg, without 100 kg bombs. Unit 624 could be armed eg. with 24x12 kg only. There could be some 12 kg bombs added to unit 625 or not.
There should be only 1 fixed MG.
Max speed of bomber variant was around 190 km/h, so it should be 2.

627 Potez XXV A2 [AOP aircraft] - Potez modified with radial engine should be rather Fighter-Bomber class, with armament as above, but speed 3 (232 km/h), used in some 8/38 - 5/39. Name should be Potez XXV B2-BJ

.

[PvtJoker]

Ammo-related question:

You write here http://derela.republika.pl/weap.htm#am that the Polish army had AP and API ammunition for the 7.92mm machine guns. Were those ammo types commonly issued to armored vehicles and do you have any data about their armor penetration capabilities? Is there any evidence that they were used against German armored vehicles in 1939? I suppose they were of conventional design with steel core?

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Ammo-related question:

You write here http://derela.republika.pl/weap.htm#am that the Polish army had AP and API ammunition for the 7.92mm machine guns. Were those ammo types commonly issued to armored vehicles and do you have any data about their armor penetration capabilities? Is there any evidence that they were used against German armored vehicles in 1939? I suppose they were of conventional design with steel core?

There must have been an error in source, because now I read in other books, that PS should be APT round, not API. Anyway, P bullet was an equivalent of German WW1 steel core SmK, and APT was its modification.

In case of infantry wz.30 HMG, for 2000 rounds there should be 1766 ordinary SC, 200 P (AP) and 34 PS (APT). I have no idea how they were belted. Unfortunately, I haven't found information how common they were in armoured vehicles. I may assume, that more common, than in infantry.

I have no data as for armour penetration, but it should be no more, than some 8-9 mm - enough for own tankette, but not enough for PzKpfw I...

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

627 Potez XXV A2 [AOP aircraft] - Potez modified with radial engine should be rather Fighter-Bomber class, with armament as above, but speed 3 (232 km/h), used in some 8/38 - 5/39. Name should be Potez XXV B2-BJ

Mistake as for year - it should start in some 8/37. We don't need another type of spotter plane, but it
According to Morgała, all Potez XXVs (units 624-627) should be armed with #190 wz.33 MG, not Vickers.

There should be also added Breguet XIX B2 - there is already icon 2906 with Polish signs. Used in 1/30-12/36. It could be copied from Spanish Republic 410, as Level Bomber or Fighter Bomber or both. It could carry 8x50 kg or 4x100 kg bombs, was armed with 1 x 7.9mm Vickers MG and max speed was 213 km/h (2? 3?).