Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[DRG]

At least you're predictable. I fully expected you to bring up the Ram in the Canadian OOB
"In case of invasion on the UK " you can use the allies button. YOU are the one that repeatedly tells me this or that unit was only used for training or not used leaving formations in tatters........ you asked for it. That's why half the armoured cars are gone and the SP arty.

34 Priest - wasn't used by the Polish
37 Bishop - wasn't used by the Polish

43 Humber Mk IV - for training only
44 Daimler A/C - for training only

All gone, And everything else like that....... gone. What exactly did you expect was going to happen ? That I was going to hunt around finding gaps with things you'll tell me later the Poles didn't have........... that's why all this crap is in there now because previous people who have had to wade through this mess tried to make it work as a continuous set of units and formations with " could have used" units that you are now asking me to remove but this mass of changes you want doesn't allow for that.... Tell me Michal.... did you make the changes to the OOB you ask for as you wrote them down to see how all this would work together ? I doubt it. That's what I'm trying to do now

Captured tanks are a different matter but you need to be VERY CLEAR as to what armoured units saw combat and when. When did the TD's enter combat, the light tanks......... 4/ 44 ??

You tell me " 441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer "......... which contradicts what you told me that there was NO Polish armour until early 1944...... now you say different. What's the real story here ? It's all fine to write this stuff down but making it work is a different matter. Garbage in , garbage out........... you say no armour until early 1944 then say Crusaders were used from 9/42. Explain this so the poor dumb grunt working 14 hour days on this crap can understand it clearly

Don

[Pibwl]

A revenge for pestering you is sweet, isn't it?

Originally Posted by DRG

At least you're predictable. I fully expected you to bring up the Ram in the Canadian OOB

I thought about it only after a while, when I thought about Polish troops in Crusaders...

Originally Posted by DRG

"In case of invasion on the UK " you can use the allies button. YOU are the one that repeatedly tells me this or that unit was only used for training or not used leaving formations in tatters........ you asked for it.

But in case of invasion it would be Polish armoured units with tanks with "PL" badge, not the allies.
Well, I wanted to be honest...

Originally Posted by DRG

You tell me " 441 Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer "......... which contradicts what you told me that there was NO Polish armour until early 1944...... now you say different. What's the real story here ? It's all fine to write this stuff down but making it work is a different matter. Garbage in , garbage out........... you say no armour until early 1944 then say Crusaders were used from 9/42. Explain this so the poor dumb grunt working 14 hour days on this crap can understand it clearly

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I wrote, that in 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only. So there was no armour in field. Crusaders were used for training yet longer, but I wanted to cut them when real tanks became available.

There was one exception: Carpathian Lancer Regiment took positions in Egypt in 7/42 - 9/42, ready to defend the Nile Delta, and it used PzKpfw-IIIJ and, since 9/42, M3 Stuarts (and Marmon-Herrington and Rolls-Royce ACs).

I have an idea: maybe we could keep all training tanks, like Covenanter, Crusader III, Valentine (all models), Churchill II in one generic category (like "tank") and use them in simple generic formations for a whole period from 11/40?... Please?... For example, they could simply replace existing Infantry tank formations (without bothering with CS tanks).

Matilda I and Mk.VIb would be also desirable, but of minor importance. We could do without Crusader II and IICS. If you want, I can sum it up once again, giving dates of availability for all these tanks.

And the second thing: normal armoured units could be used since 1/44, when the 2nd Armoured Brigade was already deployed in Italy, and combat-ready, using Shermans. It entered combat at Monte Cassino or a bit earlier (4-5/44), but it could have been as well available from 1/44, which BTW gives us a tidy date. The same concerns TDs and light tanks (M5)

Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Maybe I wasn't clear enough,

Yeah "maybe"

Originally Posted by Pibwl

but I wrote, that in 7/40 - 10/40 there were no tanks in Polish units available, and in 11/40 - 3/44 Polish tanks were used for training only. So there was no armour in field. Crusaders were used for training yet longer, but I wanted to cut them when real tanks became available.
Michal

Then what does this mean ?

Crusader III - used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. (now 4/42 - 4/43) (in training units used even longer ".........

since you have confirmed that there were NO polish armoured units in the field between that date I have to wonder why you said the Crusader III was used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. .....if the 1st Arm.Div. only existed on paper as a training division

In one of these posts you say

Their structures and weapons should be examined deeply, but maybe next year

No Michael------- what has happened here this year is NEVER going to be repeated again. If you think I am going to start this all over again with you next year you are very much mistaken. After next release you have a problem with an OOB that takes 65 posts to get through you need to learn how to edit OOB's and submit them to the MODs section and if you issue complete notes and haven't decided to be " creative"....maybe we'll consider adding it to the master game but I am NOT going to wade through the pile of notes I've had to this year again. You want an OOB re-written you are going to be doing the work yourself ( that goes for the Finn as well ) You've made a very impressive tag team this year........ like a feeding frenzy of sharks ....totally out of control this year and if I had time to spot the trend earlier I would have posted this replay back in the summer when you both were just warming up. I have double+ the pages of notes to deal with I normally would and in a "normal" year I struggle to get everything done ...........so ..... if you want an OOB totally re-written.......after next release you are on your own.



Don

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

( that goes for the Finn as well ) You've made a very impressive tag team this year........ like a feeding frenzy of sharks ....totally out of control this year and if I had time to spot the trend earlier I would have posted this replay back in the summer when you both were just warming up. I have double+ the pages of notes to deal with I normally would and in a "normal" year I struggle to get everything done ...........so ..... if you want an OOB totally re-written.......after next release you are on your own.

Don

I have to object to that, Don. The corrections I suggested for the Finnish OOB hardly qualify as a "rewritten OOB". A large part of them were just small modifications like artillery range adjustments, since off-map arty ranges clearly did not follow the rules given in the Mobhack Guide. Others were stuff like AP penetration data adjustment based on data that the earlier people who worked on the OOB did not have. I suggested a few unit additions as well, but they were just that -- suggestions, nothing more, nothing less.

I could have done all that stuff to a corrected OOB myself, but you have specifically stated that full OOB mods have relatively little chance of ever getting to the game at this point. I thought it would be easier for you and better use of my time to post them as corrections and suggestions list for the official OOBs. For me personally it would be easier just to put make a modified OOB and post it on these forums and let you to sort it out, if you wish, but I wanted others to have the best chances of benefiting from the research I have done knowing that only a small number of people actually use player-contributed OOB mods.

Now, I do appreciate the fact that there has been a lot of stuff going on here since late summer and I have certainly contributed my fair share of that. But as promised, I will not contribute any new OOB stuff until you give the permission and next year I will try to be even more critical of what I post here.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

since you have confirmed that there were NO polish armoured units in the field between that date I have to wonder why you said the Crusader III was used from 9/42 until some 5/44 in the 1st Arm.Div. .....if the 1st Arm.Div. only existed on paper as a training division

I thought it was simple: the division was formed around 1942 and until a deployment in France 1944 it trained in the UK, using mostly Crusaders (it didn't exist on paper only). It's your decision, but we have examples of tank units existing even though their country did not fight with tanks at the moment - and we have also prototypes in some oobs, which also didn't fight, and are only an option to a player. I believe, that training tanks should be available, in one, simple formation pattern, for those, who'd like to play purely hypothetical battles. Should we delete also infantry in periods, when the Polish army didn't actually fight on any front?


I'm sorry that I wasted your time - and wasted mine, trying to rework large, but in many places inaccurate (and in several - seriously inaccurate) Polish OOB. I confess, that by the way I've also indicated minor issues, that I've spotted, to make it more perfect. I thought, that this year I started early enough...

A proposal about me correcting an OOB with complete notes is interesting - but we all wish it was earlier...

Michal