confusing Artillery overload score

[gdpsnake]

Not to sound off but why does everyone assume I'm mistaken?

TRUST ME. I had 9 total off board guns. 3 sets of 3 10.5 cm guns. Look at the purchase screen under artillery. You get a set of three light artillery guns under the choice "artillery abt (German OOB circa 1941)." 3 batteries of 3 guns is nine guns - TOTAL. A 10.5cm choice costs 579 points and they are off-board assets. These are part of my core force.

My core is 5 companies of PZ III H (25 tanks), 1 company of PZ IV E (4 tanks), 4 companies of PZ grenadiers (4X4) squads for 16 total squads of men, 16 251 halftracks to carry the 16 squads, 4 wheeled Flak 88's, 4 tracked AAA guns, an HQ, and my 3 batteries of 3 guns EACH 10.5 cm artillery - TOTAL NINE GUNS!!!!!!!!

Scenario purchase points were used to buy the 75 mm IG which were in two companies including a spotter for 184 points each. My leftover support points were spent on 5 booby traps and munitions (1 purchase of 2). I ignored the rest.

So for the last time, I had 9 total guns off board and 12 on board for 9 10.5's and 12 75's. That is a total of 2105 artillery points.

The attacker had 3 howitzer troops on board for 88 times 3 or 152.
2 medium batteries of 4.5 inch for 412 times 2 or 824.
5 artillery RGT's of 25 pounders for 1008 times 5 or 5040.
That is a total of 6016 points of artillery purchase.

So 6016 to my 2105 is approximately 3 times as many artillery points. This was NOT a defend battle because I did not get any option to purchase mines and I could not/did not start entrenched. It had to be a delay.

So WAY MORE than a 6000 point force coming my way, it was OVER 6000 points in just artillery alone. My TOTAL force value with core plus purchase was 5364 points of which 2105 was artillery with a 37% artillery given next to the force number.

In the delay scenario that should have given the attacker 10,708 points to spend. 6016 was spent in artillery.

The attacker had 3 A/C troops for 180 pts.
3 light tank groups for 174 points.
3 TD sections for 204,
5 cruiser squadrons for 3420
2 inf tank groups for 342
1 inf tank section for 156
3 mg platoons for 150
3 mech patrols for 309
5 lorried inf platoons for 333
2 rifle coy + mor for 528
2 carrier sections for 164

for a grand total of 6030 points.

So the attacker got 12046 points to my 5364. I calculate a 39% art percentage to me though the game said 37%. The attacker had a 50% artillery percentage.

Mobhack,
I have the purchased game. So the attacker MUST have gotten twice the points I got (that is what you get for a special battle??). I don't really care about that except in terms of overload points in this case.

So again, based on these numbers, how is it I got ONLY 274 points awarded to my score for overload? The AI got 722 which is about 37% of my 2105 points in artillery - I see that. How is it I only got 274 when the AI spent 50% on artillery - 6016 points?
If the points accrue after 30% then I should have received 20% of 6016 or 1203 points for overload (20% after subtracting the 30% of the AI's total 50% artillery purchase?) - correct?

[grond69]

I'm not being argumentative, and it doesn't really matter, but you can't buy offboard arty by individual tubes. if you select a battery (bty) it will show one line on the top display on the right, but if you look at the bottom display, you will see the 4 tubes that make up that battery. But it doesn't matter! You spent 2105 on arty and 3259 on non-arty (if my math is right). A core of 3259 allows you to spend 575 on arty for a total of 3834. If your opponent is awarded 50% of the overspend, then the AI should have got 765 points. Close enough to what you saw

Keep in mind, the AI CANNOT spent more than they are allowed (see Andy's note on how arty can be cheaper than you might think). So, if an advance is 2x for the attacker, then the AI spent 10,728. If it spent 6030 on non-arty, then 4698 were spent on arty. Assuming that the advancing side is allowed to spend 30%, then the AI overspent by 2114 points which should have awarded you 1057 points. Not even close!

[gdpsnake]

I have nine lines of 10.5 cm artillery in my core (3 lines times three) representing the three artillery abt units I bought for my core. If 1 line in a tank company is one tank on the map then I assume 1 line of artillery is 1 tube on the map and one battery off map is 3-5 tubes?

I am probably confusing apples and oranges between tubes, guns and batteries but no matter. The numbers I stated for purchase, force values, etc. are correct or close. I did forget a few AI units in the count like the 40mm bofors guns, some ATR units and small stuff the AI had in addition to what was listed at the end of the battle but the total was clearly at least twice my force value.

I don't have a save of the game since I pressed on. But my core is exactly as I listed. The purchase price for the artillery part of my core force is three artillery abt's at 600 points each for 1800 points. 1800 of my core force value 5355 points is the 37% number. I spent less than 500 on support points, the 184 times 2 of the two IG companies and a few booby traps.

At the end, I carefully inspected the AI's force list and the game map and counted all the units especially artillery on and off the map. Thirty 25 pounder artillery troop and four 4.5 inch artillery lines off map (3-5 tubes each). Twelve 25 pounder howitzer tubes on map. Then I checked the purchase price for those units against a June 1941 British OOB purchase by starting a random campaign and looking at what could be bought for how much, etc. The artillery cost for a identical purchase was 6016 for June 41.

All the numbers I listed are correct for the organizations and units in the AI's force OOB. I actually missed some units like the 40mm bofors but it was close enough to determine that the AI spent AT LEAST twice my points in purchase and that 6016 of those points; 50%, of the AI's total purchase cost was artillery.

Again, I could not entrench nor were any mines/traps etc. available so I was NOT in a defend battle. It was a 'special battle' following a previous battle that gives the option to accept or refuse.

Again, I get that in a 'special battle' the AI gets 200% of my points or about 12,000 total points? I also get my artillery gave the AI 722 overload points. But I should have received a lot more than 274 points added to my score for the AI artillery, right?.

38-46 splashes (multiple impacts per attack) every turn for the first 6 turns was impressive. I had all of my artillery on counter battery fire and within 10 turns we were down to 16-20 splashes and down to 2-4 by turn 20 (low on ammo as well, I imagine since 60-80 ammo is the usual load for off-board artillery).

Of course, I only had about 20 functional tanks by then with all my men routed, 4 88's gone, my IG guns all routed and the halftracks and 4 AAA run off the map. Thankfully, the enemy tanks were almost all A-13's with six Valentines and two Matildas so I was able to shoot and kill all his vehicles easily from my positions at long range (15 to 25 hexes - I moved my tanks a lot to avoid splashes and find fields of fire) without any threat from the 2 pounder guns after the smoke cleared away. Then I could use my artillery to force a general withdrawal of his men and few heavy tanks. Lastly, I moved forward and re-took the victory hexes; the last re-take causing the end of the battle about turn 35. A few more 'victories' like that and I should just pull out of North Africa.....LOL.

Still can't figure that 274 overload point score added to my total considering half the AI purchase being artillery. If it happens again, I'll save the file.

[grond69]

I concur, sounds like you should have had more overload points from the AI purchase. Keep in mind, as Andy said, that some of the arty that the AI buys might be "direct control" with a 25% discount or "general control" at a 50% discount. Either way, the AI will spend only what points they are allocated by your total purchase. I think saving a game for Andy or Don to look at is a good idea. As I said in my last post, I think you should have gotten more points from AI overload.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by grond69

Keep in mind, as Andy said, that some of the arty that the AI buys might be "direct control" with a 25% discount or "general control" at a 50% discount.

I did some calculations again. Presuming that the enemy point total was 10728 points, and 274 points were awarded for overload, this would suggest that the points total for the AI artillery was around 3766 points.

If all of the off-map assets would have been bought as general support (50 % discount), then the listed AI artillery force could have been bought for 3196 (including the on-map howitzers), which is under the value given.

Assuming that one of the 25 pdr field regiments was under full control, and all other off-map assets were general support, then the points total would come to 3700 (including the on-map howitzers), which would be quite close.

Description of the artillery barrage thinning down after the really scary initial bombardments might also be an indication of the artillery having been general support.

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by gdpsnake

TRUST ME. I had 9 total off board guns. 3 sets of 3 10.5 cm guns. Look at the purchase screen under artillery. You get a set of three light artillery guns under the choice "artillery abt (German OOB circa 1941)." 3 batteries of 3 guns is nine guns - TOTAL. A 10.5cm choice costs 579 points and they are off-board assets. These are part of my core force.

My core is 5 companies of PZ III H (25 tanks), 1 company of PZ IV E (4 tanks), 4 companies of PZ grenadiers (4X4) squads for 16 total squads of men, 16 251 halftracks to carry the 16 squads, 4 wheeled Flak 88's, 4 tracked AAA guns, an HQ, and my 3 batteries of 3 guns EACH 10.5 cm artillery - TOTAL NINE GUNS!!!!!!!!

Scenario purchase points were used to buy the 75 mm IG which were in two companies including a spotter for 184 points each. My leftover support points were spent on 5 booby traps and munitions (1 purchase of 2). I ignored the rest.

At the risk of being considered patronising, I would like to point out that you have got some of your terminology a bit wrong, which might lead to misunderstandings.

Firstly, the German formation "Artillerie Abt" (abt = Abteilung) is not a battery, but a battalion, consisting of three batteries (Batterie). 10.5cm Batterie consists of 4 tubes, so you had in total 36 tubes of off-map artillery (in 9 units). This is almost equivalent to the divisional artillery component of 1941 era German armoured division (24 x 10.5 cm tubes and 12 x 15 cm tubes), so it is not a trivial amount.

As for the amount of tubes per off-map unit, it can vary between 1 and 4, with 4 tubes being the most common. You can see the amount of tubes on the unit information screen, shown eg. when purchasing (or from the bombardment menu during the game).

Also, the German term "Zug" (in game usually 4-5 tanks or 3-4 infantry squads) means a platoon, not a company. German term for company is "Kompanie", in game usually abbreviated as "Kp". So your core panzer force was actually 6 platoons of tanks, not 6 companies.

As for counting points for artillery overload, please notice that only the actual shooting (indirect fire) and ammo supply units are counted. The forward observers (such as the ones you purchased in the IG companies) are not counted towards artillery overload.


As for the amount of artillery that the British AI fielded, that would historically amount to approximately two infantry divisions worth of tubes! It must have been quite uncomfortable to be in the receiving end, especially if you are in a sandy desert that does not provide much protection for infantrymen.