I should perhaps say I am not against this mod in any way (I have even downloaded it). I am just against the idea Hitler could have invaded Britain, or have forced her to make peace.
If I were going to do the -alternative- history I might base it on UK and France calling Hitlers bluff at Munich and the German General Staff removing Hitler at that point - as a good many of them planned, had war broken out in 1938- and then producing what would have been a right wing, but rather more democratic German Government, perhaps even including a return of a Kaiser (but perhaps in a more constitutional form) as many German soldiers desired, and coupled with an end to the vile, evil, and totally stupid, Nazi race laws.
In 1938 Germany, by then including Austria, certainly could have got peace on the removal of Hitler, and the other Nazis, from power.
Germany could continue to expand her military. Britain and France would have done likewise. Czechoslovakia and Poland would continue in the game, as would Great Britain and the Empire, France and Stalin's USSR, the USA, Japan and Italy.
Germany might still want to expand, but without a madman and a group of vile, evil, thugs leading the country and minus the racial/religious genocide and cold blooded deliberate, industrial, murder of millions of men, women and children.
Now on that basis it might make some sort of sense and in a German-Soviet war -without racial/religious genocide or the deliberate killing of civilians and POW's by Germany, Germany might even get allies not just within the USSR but outside it, since prior to 1939 Stalin had killed a lot more civilians than Germany had and the USSR was hardly popular in Western Europe.
What you have to give up on is Germany building a fleet. If she tries to then the British Empire becomes her enemy -because it has to to survive- and Germany cannot win that naval war as 1914-18 and 1939-45 proved beyond any doubt.
Germany, in the 1930's, minus Hitler and the Nazis, can make the British Empire and the USA, more or less, genuinely neutral, in the East, if she either avoids commitments to Japan or gets Japan to also look East and north and not South.
Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
Still food for thought I hope...
Last edited by IronDuke99; March 30th, 2016 at 12:41 AM..
To try to understand WWII you have to know that in 1939:
Hitler was in some respects not very bright, including his moronic hatred of Jewish people.
Italy and Japan, generally, sensibly, did not share Hitler's views on Jewish people.
In the 1930's the USA and the British Empire mainly saw themselves as trade rivals. The USA had a war plan against Canada and the British Empire that was updated into the 1930's.
Winston Churchill had an American mother he was very, very, fond of that gave his, always very emotional, view of the world a pro-American bias that most of us thinking British folks, thought/think was a little bit excessive...
Prior to 1939 Stalin in the USSR had killed vastly more civilians than Germany. By 1944/45 Roosevelt said he trusted Stalin more than Churchill and acted on it. We all know what that led to...
Had I been in Churchill's position when Hitler invaded Russia, I would not have risked one single British ship or sent Stalin as much as a second hand pair of British Army boots while British forces in the Far East (Malaya and Burma) lacked tanks and modern aircraft.
In the event the vast amount of British and American military aid sent to Russia that cost the western allies -mainly UK- dear in warships and merchant ships, did very little to stop the German onslaught into the then USSR IN 1941-43, but did allow Stalin's forces, by giving them transport, to romp into Europe in 1944-45.
A book I recommend is "The Last Thousand Days of the British Empire" by Peter Clarke (2008). I do not agree with all of it, but it makes a lot of very good points from a British point of view.
Last edited by IronDuke99; March 30th, 2016 at 04:23 AM..
Mind you the USA had a fairly odd commitment to China in those days, that I have never seen much sense in, beyond the awful Japanese atrocities like their vile behaviour in Nanking in 1937.
As stated earlier it was primarily economic.
After the Spanish-American War in 1898 the US had a few overseas holdings and while there was no chance of building a "British Empire" they could, and did, compete economically, and China was a pretty significant market. The USA became seriously involved in global trade post WW I (why the US Navy expanded so much between WW I and WW II).
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Guys, the "Bah" was more of a general "hey wait, maybe we're getting sidetracked a little too much and talking a bit too much about alternate counterfactuals, plausibilities, instead of RecruitMonty's mod?"
So a little graphics for RecruitMonty, then back to our arguing
Version 2.0 of Ju-252, with:
1.) Generic Silver Scheme.
2.) Lufthansa Scheme (Black Bands)
3.) All White Winter Scheme.
4.) Green Camouflage Summer Scheme.
5.) All Tan Desert Camouflage.
You'll note that the civilian graphics don't have a top turret.
Last edited by MarkSheppard; March 30th, 2016 at 08:28 PM..
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I'm just a "straight up" baseline game player, though this mod has intrigued me over the years. That being said, does this mod have and build onto the ARADO 234 BLITZ? The 234B-2 being the definitive operational model to see combat before the wars end. it was classified as a single seat reconnaissance bomber and would have been operational around Sep/Oct 1944 with 214 total models built.
Some quick facts: Powerplant: 2 Junkers Jumo 109-004B-1 Orkan (Hurricane) turbojets. Speed: 461mph@19,685ft./438mph@sea level. Armament: 2 Defensive aft firing fuselage mounted 15.1mm MG 151 or 20mm MG151/20 cannons with 250/200 rounds per gun respectively. Offensive bomb load 2,204lbs/3,307lbs with rocket assist "drop" motors. Range: based on previous corresponding bomb loads 1,013 miles/684 miles. It had a high ceiling and was a very advanced plane to include a fully functional pilot ejection seat system. If needed or wanted I have all the rest of the specs as well. It's just you never hear about this one because it wasn't as "exciting" as the Me-163 KOMET (COMET) or the Me-262 SCHWALBE (SWALLOW).
Let me know in the meantime I think I'll check into something elsewhere.
Regards,
Pat
It's more fun with Pics:
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Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; March 31st, 2016 at 12:18 AM..
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Like most of the advanced weapons the Germans were working on late in the war it was a case of too little and too late and with not enough fuel to use it much in any case.
One of the interesting things about a Mod like this is in a Germany without Hitler and the Nazis, Germany can make sane strategic and operational choices (tactics the Germans always did well). Also Germany need not lose a lot of very good brains due to their religion/race and some scientific/technical projects might go a bit faster for them than they did in reality.
For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).
As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...
For example the ME 262 jet fully operational, as a fighter, in late 1943-early 1944 (and that might have created problems for even the Western Allies in the real WWII, given that out of all the Allies only the Brits had an operational Jet, the Gloster Meteor in WWII).
As an Aside I am always struck that Gloster Aircraft produced the RAF's last biplane fighter, the Gladiator that saw action in WWII and the RAF's first jet Fighter the Meteor by 1944...
Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May
Yes it would have but it doesn't change the fact that the Atomic bomb was ready August 1945 and defeating Nazi Germany always the Allied Priority. Hamburg is as viable a target as Hiroshima and a lot easier to get to. There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May
Couldn't it be argued that the allies wouldn't have had the Bomb at all without the research, materials and knowledge of the German scientists they "coerced" into helping after V-E day?
There is no question it would have been used there first if the war had dragged on. Germany was lucky it ended there in May[/color]
Don
Apparently, sometime in December 1944, as the Battle of the Bulge was reaching it's peak; FDR asked Groves if the bomb could be ready soon [tm] through speeded up research for tactical use against German spearheads.
The answer was no, but we'd have it ready by about August 1945.
Groves related some of this in a news interview in 1965 following publication of his book NOW IT CAN BE TOLD.
Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
Re: WinSP MBT: Das Reich
Hybrid Mode
