The Future for SE IV? Does it have one?

[Pax]

Originally posted by Crazy_Dog:
One thing that i like to see, is a weapons system like the one used in Starships Unlimited, Missiles use ammo and PPB / shields use energy.
For energy you need engines and reactors.
Also the arcs of fire like in the MOO2.
Other thing that i want to see is ships sizes can be race specific, ex. a mechanics race can build bigger ships than a spiritual one.

I plan to include a "perk"-level Racial Technology trait, "Megascalar Construction" that will give the race extra ship hulls, on the large end.

And another, "Microscalar Engineering" that will enhance smaller hulls -- mainly fighters and hte like, but will also add a ~50kT mini-ship type hull.

Not -exactly- what you had in mind, but ... 8).

[dogscoff]

Other thing that i want to see is ships sizes can be race specific, ex. a mechanics race can build bigger ships than a spiritual one.

I plan to include a "perk"-level Racial Technology trait, "Megascalar Construction" that will give the race extra ship hulls, on the large end.

...

Not -exactly- what you had in mind, but ... 8).

Well... that's exactly what he described. See also Pireates & Nomad's mod, with the "Big thinkers" trait. This feature is entirely moddable in SEIV.

[PraetorSpectre]

In response to earlier discussions here, I'm glad there;s a SEIV future and a SEV and spinoffs. I'm not big on combat that's 3D or graphics that take advantage of 3d, but a galactic map thats 3D would add quite a bit of "expansion" (and fun hopefully) to overall strategy and movement and empire layout, I believe, in a strategy game like this w/o too much micromanagement overkill.

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by klausD:

But if the battle was bigger, it was a real horror to keep oversight of who did what and when. So I think an impulse system could be fine, but just if you have a few ships (or fleet formations without the option to split them down to single ships).

With the computer keeping track, it would be pretty simple. Like I wrote, every impulses movement phase the units you could move that impulse would be highlighted, ever impulses fire phase the units which could fire that impulse would be highlighted. Just click any highlighted one and give it an order, click "end orders" when you've done all the ones you want to do.

Originally posted by klausD:

BTW: GDW`s "Invasion Earth" was a great game. I liked it too (also 5th frontier war and Imperium/dark nebula - from the series) But again I think to implement a similar system for SE5 would be too complex. Just imagine how long an invasion earth like combat would Last. And then multiply it with the amount of invasions one strategic turn in SE4 could theoretically have.

Well, I would probably limit the number of tactical turns in a ground combat, as SEIV does now with a space combat, except just have the battle carry over into the next turn. I forget the time scale of Invasion Earth, but I'm pretty sure the whole game took several months of in-game time. Also, that was an invasion by a major race of a major race's homeworld. The typical invasion would be smaller. IE is the general idea of what I'd like to see ideally, though. 5th Frontier War would also be an interesting basic concept if you don't want to deal with planetary maps. Either way, my ideal would be for units to be designed in a simplified form of what is used in scenario creation for Norm Kroger's OPART series and the "equipments" assigned to the units being what you design like "troops" in SEIV.

Originally posted by klausD:

Simple Manoevring rules could be:
turning 90 Degree: a ship has to travel at least one square before turning 90 degree. If a ship has advanced manoevre it can turn without traveling one square. If a ship has a certain size and is not very manoevrable it has to travel at least X squares before turning. thats it.

Ever play Starfire or Starfleet Battles? Starfire was originally designed by the same guy that did Starfleet Battles as a simplified system (as compared to SFB) in which battles could be fought with fairly large fleets and you could design your own ships. The SE series was heavily influenced on Starfire (more obvious in SEIII than SEIV, though). The concept you describe was in both as "turn modes". A ship's turn mode is how many hexes (or squares in SEIV) it has to travel in a straight line befoure it can turn by 1 hex side. In SFB a ship has a speed at any given time which determines the column it uses on the impulse chart (in which every impulse has a row that tells you whether a ship moving that speed moves that impulse) and it's turn mode varies according ots speed, with smaller/more manueverable ships have a smaller turn mode than big ones at any given speed. SF simplified this by having every ship move its max speed but able to "move" during an impulse by expending a movement point in place (which counts toward its turn mode), and giving each ship the same turn mode at all speeds. Bigger ships also have bigger turn modes in SF, but "Advanced Manuevering" can reduce it by 1. SF did not really use the same sort of impulse system as SFB, but was readily adaptable to do so.

As an aside, turn modes would not work so well with a square grid. They'd really need to go hexagonal.

Originally posted by klausD:

A ship designer has only the option to make bigger ships (he has not to, because dreadnoughts could also occupy just one square as it is in SE4) and to pre-define the squares they occupy during the design - but with the same graphical quality as now.

The fact that you can't stack ships in SEIV is a simplification. In SF you could. The point is that one square on the tactical map is still a whole lot of space. No ship really "fills" the square it occuppies, much less hangs over into multiple squares. Not even stars and gas giants overflow their square.

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by dumbluck:
One small thing: Make sure it's "fire, then move" instead of "move, then fire". Otherwise, static defences, especially at Warppoints, would be at a serious disadvantage...

I'm not sure I see the disadvantage of static defenders in "move, then fire", given that the attackers, IF they happened to have the fastest speed in the game, would at most be able to move 1 hex/square before the fire phase of that impulse. I'm not talking about going through all the movement impulses of a turn before anybody fires, but rather each impulse having separate move & fire phases. Not being able to move in an impulse would not preclude firing. Only not having your weapons charged would do that, which on the first impulse of the first turn of the batle would not be a problem (unless some sort of surprise rule were added - a separate topic).

Originally posted by dumbluck:
Also, couldn't this be (kinda) modded in? Change the # of combat turns to, say, 300, and multiply the reload rates by 10. But not the movement; you'd probably want to DECREASE the combat movement generated by normal engines. Of coarse, this would need a lot of balancing, but it's kinda what you want. Sorta. Maybe?

Interesting idea, but I don't think it would work. The impulse concept requires that some impulses a ship can't move and others it can (but only 1 hex/square). To take a simplified example, let's say our max game speed is 6, so we have 6 impulses. We have four ships: #1 moves at speed 6, #2 moves at speed 3, #3 moves at speed 2, #4 moves at speed 1:

Impluse#1: Ship #1 moves
Impulse#2: Ships #1 & #2 move
Impulse#3: Ships #1 & #3 move
Impulse#4: Ships #1 and #2 move
Impulse#5: Ship #1 moves
Impulse#6: Ships #1, #2, #3 & #4 move

Any of them could fire on any impulse, whether or not it can move, if it has a charged weapon. A weapon that fires every turn would take 5 impulses to charge - if you fire it on impulse #3, it could not fire again until impulse #3 of the next turn.

[Magnum357]

Wow! I've been gone from the board for like 3 or 4 months and look at all the new speculation that is occuring. Hey guys, lets not jump the gun here on 3D graphics for a stand alone SE game, or a combat system for SE5 (if their ever is a SE5). I've dabled a little bit with programming and know a few people that deal with 3D graphics. Programming a 3D engine for any game is not an easy endeveour! I'm not saying Aaron can not do it, but it could be a very long time before we even see any mention of a 3D space combat game (let alone a 3D style SE5).

Just building the 3D engine alone is fairly complicated and tough for one guy to do. Also, speaking of 3D graphics, compatability issues are a big concern here too. Oh, you could make a 3D game engine and program all the bleeps and whistles and runs great for the system it is created on, but having it compatible with other systems graphics cards and systems is a very daunting task, even with great programming skills of MM. Do any of you have any idea of how many 3D graphics cards companies their are out their??? Like Diamand, GeForce, RIVA, or Voodoo cards and their variants. And what about all those integrated cards they have on computer systems these days? These are just a fraction of the hardware available.

Also, that might bring another point. I've read on countless occasions that many people that play Space Empires like playing the game not only because of the game play, but also its not too hefty on system requirements. I'm so sick and tired of game companies making games every six months that literly force you to buy a system even few months just too keep up with the new games system requirments. I don't know about any of you, but I don't have money to burn just for a Computer game. That was the beauty of SE3 and SE4, it was very adatable to the Windows operating system and didn't require a hefty CPU to run it. Once you go 3D graphics, you got to realize you are playing a whole new ball game.

Hey, this would be awsome if MM could design a 3D space combat game, and I would definitly buy it because I love Space Empires, but I'm definitly not holding my breath. Who knows how long it would take to develop the game. SE4 took nearly 3 years to develope. Although Aaron does have a little more resources to work with now, I would not be suprised if it too maybe twice as long as SE4. Just my opinion on this.

[dumbluck]

BB: Hmmm. On the "Fire, then move thing": Ok, I see what you mean now. I must not have been thinking clearly.

Now, the only hard-code change (that I can see) you need for your "impulse system" is to have engines that can give fractional moves/combat turn. You'd need an engine that gave you, say, 1 move every 6 turns, (and 2 engines gave 2 per 6 turns, etc). Then you could just mod the game to work like you've proposed.

Or am I missing something else now....

EDIT: Actually, all components that generate only 1 "somethings" per combat turn would need to be modded for fractional generation/turn, not just engines. Shield Regenerators, for example.

EDIT AGAIN: umm actually, that second engine should make it 1 move every 3 turns, huh?

[ August 21, 2002, 14:34: Message edited by: dumbluck ]