French OOB06 (v.7)

[Pibwl]

Only few errors or improvements, easy to fix or skip:

13 Char-D1 - photo is D2 - should be eg. 8863 or 27547 or 27548

(btw: "-" in name is not used in French, same for Char-B1 and Char-D2)


40 Sniper - a picture is a generic post-war US rifle. I'm attaching a photo from French magazine.


197,408 Laffly 80 AM - size should be 3 (now 4), like 391 Laffly 50 AM and other comparable cars, while crew should be 4 (3).

202 20mm AA-Gun - photo is Flak, should be Oerlikon, eg. 17041.

209, 431 R-35, R-35 bis - it's worth to give it an own photo with long gun (attached). Gun's designation was in fact SA38, not SA35 (for all users). It was a very rare tank.
The name "R-35 bis" is not used in French publications (however, French Trackstory 04 Renault R35/R40 calls it R-39, although it wasn't official name). More appropriate name could be R-35 /SA38 or something like this.

Same remarks for Vichy unit 431 and Polish 468 - which could use the same photo, or there are photos of Polish tanks (attached).

387 Potez 25 - photo is Brasilian in fact (http://www.reservaer.com.br/galeriah...otez25toe.html ) - attached are some French ones.

430 AMC-34 YR - according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_34 and other publications, from 12/37 all were sent to colonies and subsequently modified with 3-men crew and 25 mm guns (in other place it was described as short fortress gun SA RF, but I have no exact data. The page http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=60801 lists 25mm RF models L/40, L/47.2, L/60 and L/72. Photo https://web.archive.org/web/20051128...mc34_84246.jpg shows quite short gun, but a standard weapon 008 25mm SA35 L/53 might do).


526 Curtiss Hawk 75 - photo is apparently Finish (same for Vichy), I'm attaching several French and Vichy proposals.

That's all for France this time.

[IronDuke99]

My grandfather told my father he once met a Frenchman during WWII who said he was in the French resistance who had a Chassepot rifle, that he may, or may not, have fired at a German soldier on the 1 April 1942...

[Pibwl]

I couldn't help investigating some of the aircraft in 2020 release, when I browsed an interesting Czech book with relatively detailed bomb loads, which are often hard to find (Jaroslav Schmid: Letadla 1939-45. Stíhací a bombardovací letadla Francie a Polska)

232 Potez 25 [AOP] - photo of French aircraft is 8239, like unit 387.

567 ANF Mureaux 110 (AOP) - since it has a beautiful icon, it might also serve as a bomber, with 200 kg of bombs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANF_Les_Mureaux_113 ) - from 1935/36, when Mureaux 115 appeared.

654 Bloch MB.174 - photo is Amiot 354, as below.
Bomb load is correct

655 Amiot 354 - it rather couldn't carry 20 bombs in its sleek fuselage, while it had no external hardpoints (and 50 kg is a small caliber on the other hand). It could carry 2x500 kg or 6x200 kg inside, though (max 1200 kg).

656 Amiot 143M - according to the quoted book, it could not carry 9 big bombs (100 kg in this case), however it could carry 8 bombs 100 or 200 kg (4 in hull, 4 under wings - 1600 kg in total).

BTW: "M" is in fact redundant in designation - it was only a part of full producer's designation Amiot 143 M5, meaning multiplace 5-seater - the Army used designation 143 BN5

657 Bloch MB.200 - as I've already written in Czechoslovak OOB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=52481 , in case of 50 kg bombs, only 16 could be carried (8 in 8 single bomb bays and 8 on 4 external racks, two on each) - now 24.
It could also carry 12×100 kg (8 in bomb bays and 4 on external racks) - 1200 or 1400 in total.

658 Bloch MB.210 - I have no detailed info, apart from bigger bomb load 1600 kg , but most probably it had the same configuration as MB.200, so it could carry only half of 32 x 50 kg bombs.
It apparently could carry 8x100 kg in bomb bays and 4x200 kg on external racks.

[Pibwl]

To finish up my notes:

I'll try not to repeat myself, although some hints from the above are still actual, eg. for 01 AMC-35, 430 AMC-34 YR, sniper's photo, colonial armoured cars


96 T19 105mm HMC - photo is ordinary halftrack. US photo is 19018

197 Laffly 80 AM - icon is the same as Laffly 50 (contrary to some publications, it was a different new machine). I suggest to change it to 4820/21/22, possibly the closest from available ones (drawings: https://drawingdatabase.com/laffly-80-am/ )
Apart from a short period at a beginning, they were used only in colonies.

407 White AM - used until 1933-34 at least (now 12/32), then still used in colonies until 1941.
(according to http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/i...sk=view&id=685 and Russian Bronekollekcya book on French AC)

The icon should be in fact the same as unit 391 Laffly 50 AMD, with the same hull.
(however, icon 167, which currently Laffly 50 has, is not very good - https://drawingdatabase.com/laffly-50-am/ . A satisfactory effect at a low cost would be obtained with a modified icon 4814 of Lancia IZ, fitted with different turret).

BTW: thank you for many new great quality icons


203, 204 Laffly S20T AA, Citroen P19 AA - light SPAA guns in French army were unfortunately prototypes only. There is even no information in the bible "L'Automobile sous l'uniforme 1939-1940". Several photos and additional info are there: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81476 (Citroen P19 AA had twin AAMGs BTW). In 1940 there could exist few single experimental or improvised vehicles with twin 13.2mm or even single 25 mm, but positively not on a regular basis, especially from 1930.
I've found an information somewhere, that simple cars or trucks with 8mm MMGs were used, which is quite obvious (btw, there is nice photo of Peugeot with LMG http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=69262.0 )

There were also used twin 7.5mm MAC-31 AAMG in the French Army from mid-30s, probably on light trucks as well (there was a drawing of twin MAC-31 on Laffly S20 in a French magazine).


431 R-35 bis - I have never encountered such name for R-35 with SA38 gun. They are sometimes unoficially caled R-39. I suggest R-35 (SA38) or similar.
The weapon #13 37mm SA35 (L33) should be in fact named SA38, according to French Trackstory No.4 and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_H35 and other sources.

209 R-35 - the same as above - name could be R-35 SA38 or similar.
The photo has prominent short gun - could be 2164, like unit above - or eg.
http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/i...le%20blanc.jpg

336 Maison Fortifie - a photo of fortified house is eg. 8884


06, 176, 189 H-39/SA18 - H-39 with SA18 gun was a primary model, so it could be just H-39 (like 005 H-35). I suggest to rename late variant with a long gun H-39/SA38 or H-39 (SA38) instead.

08 Char B1 etc - Char in all names (D1, D2, B1, 2C) is redundant, meaning just "tank".

75 M3 Stuart - just FYI: photo is M3A3 with sloped arour, used from 1944 along with M5A1, while the French used also M3A1 in desert fighting: http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/i...m-3-a1-stuart]


There could be added:
75mm AA mle 1913 - 007 75mm De Dion from Polish OOB, used until 1940

Somua MCG heavy tractor - 344 from Greek oob. Used from early 30s.

[blazejos]

In subject of of 75mm AA mle 1913 best page with description
French modernized some of guns in 1933 to be able fight with tanks also.
They were called Autocanon de 75 Mle 1913/34 but cars remain the same original De Dion Bouton from times of WWI. 57 AA batteries still used them in 1940 during French Campaign.

https://translate.google.pl/translat..._bouton_aa.htm

There is translated page from polish with photos of French modernised variant
https://translate.google.pl/translat...plot75mm-fr%2F


Poland used French unmodified version from WWI here photo from movie 1937. https://www.imcdb.org/v256962.html
And here photo of Orginal version lost in Mielec in 1939 https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_...nicza_mle_1897

Additionally to that Poland has modified variant PF621L were this gun was mounted on new car here are photos and story of their usage in 1939.
http://www.weu1918-1939.pl/75-mm-dzi...biezne-pf621l/
According to story Poland has three batteries of this cars 4 vehicles each they fight al thee way from Katowice Silesia to Romanian border destroyed 6 aircraft's and around 6 tanks fights were with German's and Soviets as well.

[Pibwl]

And last part.
I always liked Laffly cars. While checking vehicles in the "bible" L'Automobile sous l'uniforme 1939-1940, I've found some info on motorized units, which I'll quote for a sake of completness - maybe someone will find it useful for own mods. I can send scans of appropriate pages in need.

For game purpose, apart from adjusting vehicles' specifications, I limit suggestions to three simple things:
- extend availability of 6-men dragoon squads on Citroen-Kegresse P19 from 1930 (now 1935)
- delete 10-squad motorized infantry before 1935
- make motorized scouts available from 1935-37, with added vehicles

Motor infantry:

183 Citroen-Kegresse P19 - speed of troop carrier variant was 46 km/h (now 12), according to the book. In fact its capacity was only 7 men (now 10). Units #360-363 Chasseurs have 6-7 men, so it's OK, but units 24 Mortiers de 81 and 181 MMG Squad (2) have 8 men.

The formations of motorized infantry on P19 halftracks appear only in 7/35, but in fact they were the first French motorized units, organized from 1929 (Bataillons de Dragons Portes in some cavalry divisions). Maybe the date was mistaken with 10-men squads on wheeled vehicles.

A composition of a platoon was 7 P19: three sections with two P19 (6 men with LMG in each!) and command vehicle with 7 men. It would demand extending availability of #360-363 Chasseurs (or maybe creating earlier units with older rifles). Maybe it's worth to rename them as Dragons (they were Bataillons de Dragons Portes).

A squadron in Cavalry Division type 1932 had 32 vehicles:
- a command platoon,
- 3 fusilier platoons (above),
- 1 MG platoon
- one 60 mm mortar (apparently in one P19).

In MG platoon there were 5 P19 - four carying MG and 6 men (apparently one MG each) and one commander's with 7 men (I assume it was the same organization for squadron and battalion level, although it may be strange to assign 4 MGs for 3 platoons).

On a battalion level there was support squadron, with two MG platoons, 81 mm mortar platoon and two 25mm ATG sections (If I understand correctly, 2x2). Mortar platoon had 5 P19 - four carrying mortars and 7 men.

I'm not sure what happened to 7-men squads on P19 with an adevent of 10-men ones (I don't understand French that well), but their units may have remained until 1940, since there were dragoon P19 still in service.

From 1935 there were introduced new special six-wheeled off road troop carriers (VDP - vehicles dragons portes) to carry 10-men squads in new enlarged Regiments Dragons Portes. The first was Lorraine 28, and from 1937, Laffly 20TL:


180 Laffly S20T - precisely 20TL - it entered service only in 1937 (now 1/35). Could carry only 10 men, but it should be enough for game's formations. Speed was 65 km/h (now 18).

It has class Medium truck along with ordinary trucks, and truck-riding infantry is available from 1930. It seems, that before 1935 there were no regular motorized 10-men squads in France, riding on ordinary trucks. Maybe they could have been used ad hoc, but IMO there should be no truck infantry platoons available - if anybody wishes, he can load the infantry onto trucks.
Maybe Laffly 20TL should be reclassified to APC (wheel) to make it separate from ordinary trucks, with appropriate changes in formations.

Composition of motorized inf. platoon: 4 S20TL with 10 men (each with 2 LMGs!), including a command vehicle (with 10 men - no mention, that they had different armament)

MG platoon: 2 S20TL with 10 men and one command with 8 men (unclear number of MGs, maybe 2x2?)
Mortars 81 mm: 5 S20TL, with two sections and a command car, 7 men each (apparently 4 mortars).
There were also vehicles with 60 mm mortars (7 men).


Scouts:

437 Eclaireurs,
438 Laffly V15R - there should be motorized scouts available earlier (now 6/40). 4x4 Laffly V15R indeed came into service in late 5/40, but only 63 were made, while at least 806 older "voiture de liaison tout terrain" (VLTT, reconnaissance off-road car) were delivered from mid-1930s, mostly 576 six-wheel Lafly S15R from some 1/1938. And earlier - apparently even from 1930-31, there were several hundreds of VLTT P19 Kegresse half-tracks. All carried 1+5 persons.

The photo of 438 Laffly V15R is in fact S15R (V15R is image 4534). We might create the other unit. Speed 24 fits to S15R (72 km/h), speed of V15R was 79 km/h.
BTW: Romanian unit 228 S15R has speed only 15.

Citroen-Kegresse P19, in scout version P19B, used from 1931, had speed 52km/h (photos http://www.doublechevron.de/Historisches/P19_3.gif , https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5bd41e7c20.jpg ). Or photo 15011 can be used.


As for 068 Laffly V15T (Utility vehicle), it was artillery tractor variant, produced and used from 1939. Now it's used in utility vehicles and artillery observer formations only. It might be replaced with S15R as well. Citroen might be renamed Camionette, meaning all 1-1.5t trucks, including Peugeot ones.

219 Morris 15cwt - it wasn't A/T wheel, just rear whel drive (at least in 1940-43 period - the British later had few 15cwt 4x4s).


Prime movers:

165 Citroen-K P17 - max speed was 32 km/h (now 12).

There should be added faster (45 km/h) halftrack tractor Unic P107 used from about 1937 as a new standard. There is already photo 27567. Pretty good icon is 764 - it had closed middle compartment.

That's basically all as for France.

[Pibwl]

PS.
As for motorized units, I've found an interesting article https://russeurope.hypotheses.org/fi...h-Armament.pdf
(although there is a small inaccuracy, because Dragons Portes were motorized cavalry, not infantry )


It says among others, that at the beginning, all squads were equipped with 2 vehicles (Citroën-Kégresse P19) carrying each 1 LMG and 7 men : in fact 1 half-squad of 6 men + 1 driver. So a Dragons Portés squad had 12 men (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs) and 2 vehicles.

It fits to 361/362 Chasseurs in the game (apart from name) - each has 6 men and LMG, one has VB, both create one formation 140 GdC Chasseurs
Unit 360 Chasseurs would be a command section with 7 men (number correct according to the book, I don't know if they should have VB).
Therefore, form. 141 Cie Chasseurs is correct (apart from late introduction date and name)

For a sake of completness, 363 Chasseurs (7 men, no support weapons) is used in formation 145 PC Cie Chasseur, with two P19 and one 60 mm mortar - it might be correct.


The article confirms, that a bigger vehicle has been designed (Laffly S20TL for the Dragons Portés) to carry the whole squad, but this time reduced to 10 men, keeping the same armament (1 VB launcher, 2 LMGs).

It also explains, that there was infanterie motorisée (motorized infantry), but:

Despite their name they were not fully motorised units, they had no organic vehicles to move all the infantry. They even had an allotment of horses and wagons. Each regiment only possessed enough vehicles to move the regimental and battalion headquarters. The motorized infantry squads of a motorized infantry regiment are classical 12-men infantry squads but carried by trucks or buses (Laffly S20TL and Lorraine 38L are only for the Dragons Portés and Chasseurs Portés units). The troops of the division were moved by a GTP "groupement de transport de personnel" for strategical movements, which when not transporting the division was withdrawn for other duties near to where the regiment was stationed.

So, it confirms, that there were no other rifle units with organic tactical transport other than Dragons Portes with P19 (6+6 men squads), Lorraine 28 and S20TL (10 men squads) or Chasseurs Portes with APC 38L in armoured divisions. According to the book, the 38L with a trailer carried 10 men, a commander (11th man?) and a driver.


Back to Dragons Portes, we have classes:
69 Mechanised Infantry with 7 men, mortar or VB (used as command section - BTW, regular 60 mm mortar in infantry squad looks suspicious)
71 Medium Mech Infantry (#32, 376) with 9 men, LMG, VB
72 Light Mech Infantry (#31, 375) with 9 men, VB

Formations: 067 Pel Dragons and 068 Pel Chasseurs have one 72 class, three 71 class squads and four trucks/APC.

In real platoon there were four S20TL with 10 men, each with 2 LMGs, including a command vehicle (with 10 men - no mention, that they had different armament).
I have no info about company level.

Obviously regular trucks of transport columns didn't carry 10-men squads, but regular infantry squads, probably packed in bigger numbers.

Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts, which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center of the first row of rear seats. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29, a 8mm Saint-Etienne Mle1907 MG or a 8mm Hotchkiss Mle1914 MG (often two vehicles in a company convoy were equipped with a Hotchkiss ot Saint-Etienne AAMG for the AA protection).

It might explain unit 203 Laffly S20T AA in formation 184 Esc Dragons, with misidentified armament.


The article also states, that ordinary infantry had 12 men squads, each with LMG and VB - in the game units 36/37/152/155 Gpe Infanterie have 10 men and only half have LMGs.