The unbeatable combination is it out there?

I'm not sure it's right to characterise the Talisman as an end-game tech. It takes a few research levels to reach, but it's not that expensive, and you can get there relatively quickly if you focus on it. And who says the intermediate levels aren't useful? Shrines are great!

You can for example save a lot of research points by getting DUCs and PDCs and then ignoring all other weapons development. With Talismans, ECM and armour, they're the only weapons you need to make some pretty dangerous ships.

How to counter them?

Long range weapons and max-range tactics, so you are shooting and religion-boy isn't.

Otherwise (as others have already said) maximising your to-hit chances and getting as close as possible, reducing his advantage to a minimum.

The point about play-balance is that he spent 1500 points to get religion. What did you spend yours on? Better Intel ought to let you sabotage his engines or steal his ships. Better production would let you outnumber him. Better research would give you more damaging weapons - he may be hitting more often, but when you hit, it hurts a lot more. Etc.

Mark

[geoschmo]

Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500. And as players get better at the supporting techniques that along with Tailsman make it so devastating, that may go down. But I am convinced that the very fact of the effectivness of the technique will help the use of it to be self limiting. As religious race players get a reputation for being extremely dangerous opponents other players will single them out for early termination, just out of a sense of self-preservation. This shold in turn persuade players to think twice about selecting it as a racial trait.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

Properly handled I bet this combo can win at a higher percentage of the time that any other combo. Aggree or disaggree?"

Lot of racial points there, especially since the two goals don't overlap. Where are your points going?

Phoenix-D

[Krsqk]

"Well I can't disagree until I can consistantly beat them. Up till now my performance agaisnt religious races isn't much better than .500."

I had a fit in my latest Devnull game against the Toltoyan. They were the Last race in my purge, and I didn't realize they were religious. My Talisman-equipped SDs plowed through their outer systems on Strategic Combat against 10-to-1 odds--until I met their new Talisman-equipped SDs. Not a pleasant surprise. They actually destroyed my Last ship before I decided to quit attacking. I only came back because I had better production. Now I'm building sphereworlds in every system, converting all planets to breathable, and creating new planets out of all asteroids.

[Gozra]

You make My point exactly Krsqk. The Talisman with high production is diffcult to beat. But the Race can be smashed before they get the Talisman. The problem comes in that it takes awhile to spread the knowledge that a dangerous enemy is afoot. And I contend that someone with the Talisman and High production will win better than 50% of the time. With PBW Survivor2 coming up it would be an interesting testing ground.

[ August 23, 2002, 06:27: Message edited by: Gozra ]

[tesco samoa]

two words

GUTB ESCORTS

GUYS YOU JUST DON"T GET IT

[Growltigga]

I was never part of the GUTB experience BUT, I personally find light cruisers and destroyers armed with DUC V's, armour III and PDC IV a tough combination to beat