SAM problems

[Imp]

As several people have commented on helicopter invulnerability to SAMS thought I would set up a test, it seems they are correct.
Scenerio 900 Helo test attached.

If some people could run give some figures I caused hardly any damgage against well armoured helos.
50 plus MANPADS resulted in 1 damage point from an Igla's & 4 hits by the 2 best MANPADs causing light damage upto 4 points.
The 5th hit on that target that already had 14 damage was for 43 points obviosly a kill.

Units have been modified as stated on the map to give higher hit probabilty but armour & durability have not been touched.

I would suggest if you want to help test do the following.
Either play as side 2 & move the helos yourself or
Play as side one but delete the helos you do not want to look at in the editor first.
Example Helos named D12 A4 are Apaches (second toughest Helo in game) delete the rest in the editor let the AI move them & watch the replay (its faster) & post your results.
Try again versus say Armour 0 & 2 helos. Have included some with same armour but diffrent durability to see how that effects things. D20 A4 may be even tougher for example.

Any questions please ask or if you want delete the MANPADs & buy SAMS to find out what can reliably damage the respective helicopters.

If you run the scenerio as is I would expect the AI to move the most fragile helos first.
Buy order is least protected to most protected for helos.
Worst to best for MANPADs

The idea is to find what settings reliably cause a damage result or kill on the helo as I feel a MANPAD hit should in most cases cause damage. Warhead size could be a major factor if you want to try modifying the SAMs.
Warhead size 5 & 6 at least caused some damage, all hits bar 1 that caused 1 damage by size 4 warhead failed to inflict damage versus the Apache. Maybe Warhead size 4 is only a viable option versus unarmored & Armour 1 targets.

[Karagin]

The issue I have seen with helicopters is that the AAMGs seem to do more damage in the 70s/80s time frame than the SAMs UNLESS the SAM is one of the high-end state of the art examples.

The other issue is if a helipoter is doing NPOE (Nap of the Earth) flying how the hell is a AA unit going to see it, let alone get a fix on it?

Downloading your test game.

[Suhiir]

If you stay low altitude you can hide behind hills and trees with helos. But as soon as you fly over a building or forest you're no longer at low altitude and may get opened up on. So choose your flight path carefully.

[Imp]

The idea was to run some tests so the developers can see if it needs looking at as people have said helos are to tough.

You can run the game in the background then just have pen & paper handy to record the replay results. Turning off animations might speed it up more.

I am going to work so have not reviewed the replay but save game slot 25 attached. Fire versus D20 A2 helos I deleted the rest.

Test something different like fire vs D20 A0 so an idea can be had of the performance vs them.

With some hard data the developers can decide if it needs looking at & perhaps ask people to test if needed.

I have a feeling its not straightforward damaged helos are more likely to take more or larger damage from repeat hits. AAA guns have to be factored in to do they do better?

Just putting this out as an idea if its looked at due to the fact helos can take fire from SAMs, AA capable guns & infantry ground fire if adjacent to simplify things & get closeish to required results. Armour could be used vs ground fire & durability vs SAMS.
Just a thought as you could make heavily armoured helos virtually immune to ground fire & they could have higher durability meaning they would be more likely to survive a SAM hit.

Remember also I have removed the EW ratings, heavily armoured helos tend to have high EW ratings making hits by older SAMs less likely in the first place.

[Suhiir]

Some time back I did some tests with helos. These are the results I recall.

At armor 0 armor they got shot up, if not down, by small arms (rifles) more often the not when they ventured near an infantry unit. MGs off vehicles were a virtually guaranteed kill.

At armor 1 they seemed to be able to withstand most small arms fire but MGs were still pretty lethal.

At armor 2 they become near invulnerable to small arms and highly resistant to MGs.

At armor 3+ most light flak doesn't bother them.

EW wise it depends entirely on the rating of the MPAD/missile. If the helo has a higher rating they're seldom hit, if lower more often then not they were. BUT the armor rating means lighter MPADs do little to no damage even if hit.

OF COURSE there are always crits, so occasionally anything can destroy them in a single hit.

[Imp]

Okay minor problem it may be my settings but you cannot use the replay it does not always give the message that the helo has been hit.

[Karagin]

I have seen Choppers take MG fire and evade away, with say 1 damage point, then you move it one hex and it's like a big NEON sign is on the unit and it's shot down. I have seen the AI move a Chopper, reaction fire hits it, it falls back then moves again gets fired at, misses but some how the unit still dies.

EW doesn't always stop the AI from firing at things. I have seen low tech SAMs hit high tech choppers and fighters and take them out even with the messages going EW reduces hit by XX% and evasion actions reduce it even more...BOOM dead aircraft. The chance factor seems to be the issues and not in a bad way, for a lot of this.