Poland OOB

[Pibwl]

ZU-23-2 AA guns

An issue of ZU-23-3 gun mutations is vague, because Polish Army doesn't bother to inform citizens which versions and with what sights they use, but for Wikipedia purpose I researched the subject from several articles in military press about sights development for these guns.

088 ZU-23-2 AA-Gun (basic Soviet variant FC=5) - Poland didn't buy a license to manufacture ZAP-23 opto-mechanical vector sights, only basic optical sights, so it might have had worse FC, than Soviet version (now all have 5). On the other hand, maybe ZU-23-2 guns with ZAP-23 sights should have better FC, than weak 5? (worse than WWII 37mm gun or 40mm Bofors, which have 10)..
Here's Bulgarian manufacturer's description: https://arconpartners.net/anti-aircr...-sight-zap-23/

I don't know however (and maybe nobody knows) how rich were versions sold to numerous African or Asian countries - while we can assume, that Warsaw Pact (except for Poland) had standard ZAP-23 sights, which is mentioned in Russian publications as standard equipment. Poland wanted to develop own sights instead - what took 20 years...


79 ZUR-23-2S Jod (Polish ZU-23 combined with Strela missiles and new sights GP-1R of 1988, FC=15) - vision should be 0 (15), just like basic ZU-23 (no night sights at all).

619 ZU-23-2E (improved AA gun with new CKE-1 sights of 2002, FC=20) - name should be ZU-23-2K in fact (E was a proposal with central battery fire control, while K have new individual collimator sights).
Now it has vision 40, while it should have 0 from the start, and 30 only from 2004 (CKE-1N sights with passive night vision). Vision 40 was obtained only in 2016 (CKE-1T sights with TI). These versions might be added.

Icon should be 1979 (ordinary ZU-23, without missiles)

BTW: thanks to CKE sights and new Polish APDS ammo, efficient range grew to 5500 m, but I don't know if it matters.


95 ZUR23-2KG Jodek (Polish ZU-23 with Grom missiles of 2002) - FC should be 20 (now 15), like unit 619 of the same year with the same family sights CKE-2 (it can engage targets flying 500 m/s, comparing to 300 m/s in case of ZAP-23).
Vision should be 0, and 30 only from 2004 (CKE-2N sights, as above)

169 ZUR23-2KG Jodek - it might represent version with more advanced CP-1 sights with laser RF, but it has no TI, only passive night channel (now: vision 40).
It was introduced in 2007 (or more safely: 2008) (now: 106).

I would suggest to improve FC to 25 (now 20) - CP-1 programmable sights are told to be big improvement, able to fight guided bombs and drones.

[Pibwl]

SAMs and MANPADS


85 Aster 30 - well, seems that for 5 years we should already have Aster SAM... of course there aren't any and there are no such plans anymore.

611 Loara SP-SAM - with Crotale - pure fiction


201 Grom Team - basic version was delivered from 2002 according to newest publications (now 101).
Picture is Strela - photos are eg. https://wml.wat.edu.pl/index.php/his...rgrom-zkr.html , https://www.mesko.com.pl/zestawy-prz...wlotnicze.html

205 Grom Team - initial version, ending date should be extended at least until 2001 (see above), or rather until some 2005. Better name is Grom-I Team to differentiate from Grom. Picture is Strela

weapon #126 Grom-I SAM - kill statistisc should be the same as #127 Grom - there is no information, that the warhead changed (now they are like old Strela-2). On the other hand, it seems, that warhead size of both should be 4, not 5, like Igla and most MANPADS (it has 1.27 kg - French Mistral with warhead 5 has 2,95 kg).
Accuracy probably should be lower - homing head was basing upon Russian export (simpler) Igla, so it should probably be 118 at best (like basic Russian Igla), maybe even 110-115 (now 120).
In #127 Grom the homing head was much improved by the Polish and it is 130 (justified).

The weapon is also used by Georgia (the same issue with Strela picture, unit 351 Grom SAM)

There appeared recently new modern Piorun SAM - a development of Grom (formerly Grom-M), delivered from 2019. It is said, that accuracy and target detection have been much improved, to world's best level - although Grom has already accuracy 130, and I don't know if any MANPADS in the game is better than 130. Range was enhanced to 400-6500 m. The launcher is fitted with TI sights.


612 Poprad, 614 Zubr P - it is the same Poprad SAM system in fact, but 612 is prototype on Iveco truck, and 614 is final vehicle on ligtly armoured Zubr chassis, and it is the only one that should be taken into account - with Poprad name. However, icon 76 of 612 Poprad is better.
Two vehicles of trial series (on Zubr chassis) were tested by the Army in 2014, but series vehicled were commissioned only from 2018.
One vehicle should be armed with #126 Grom (not Grom-I), and another with Piorun SAM, first fired from 2020. There are 8 missiles carried.
There should be no machine gun, especially ancient DsHK.
It has TI head and laser RF. But it can't swim.
The launcher itself is not armoured, so maybe it should not have armour all around.
Size 3 would be more appropriate for mid-size truck (now 2) (same for unit 726 Zubr scout vehicle)


BTW, from 11/07 Indonesia uses a small number of Poprad systems with Grom missiles on unarmoured 6x6 Land Rover chassis, and ZUR23-2KG-I AA guns, also with Groms (Polish 169) - https://www.armyrecognition.com/indo...sh_poland.html

Polish export name is Kobra, reportedly they are named Aster in Indonesia, but I can't confirm it. As far as I know, only 8 vehicles were delivered in two batches by 2010.

[blazejos]

Here best photos of Żubr MRAP vehicle which I found on AMZ Kutno official page ZubrP is AA version http://amz.pl/pojazdy-wojskowe/opancerzone/zubr-p/

And here only drawings of this vehicle found primitive but best what we have

[Pibwl]

As for T-55AM Merida you're probably right, I didn't want to research details there...

Originally Posted by Pibwl

There appeared recently new modern Piorun SAM - a development of Grom (formerly Grom-M), delivered from 2019. It is said, that accuracy and target detection have been much improved, to world's best level - although Grom has already accuracy 130, and I don't know if any MANPADS in the game is better than 130. Range was enhanced to 400-6500 m. The launcher is fitted with TI sights.

Many good words were recently said about Piorun, concerning its usage in Ukraine. There is an opinion among experts (Polish ones though), that it might be the most advanced MANPADS at the moment, with effective homing head algorithms and advanced decoy selection. There are pre-programed modes, optimized for aircraft, UAV and misiles, and for weather conditions. Reportedly no other MANPAD have proximity fuze, which Piorun has. During trials it destroyed 57 mm S-5 rockets.

[Pibwl]

I know this is rather not important, but for a sake of precision, an autocorrection according to more detailed article:

Originally Posted by Pibwl

619 ZU-23-2E (improved AA gun with new CKE-1 sights of 2002, FC=20) - name should be ZU-23-2K in fact (E was a proposal with central battery fire control, while K have new individual collimator sights).
Now it has vision 40, while it should have 0 from the start, and 30 only from 2004 2005(CKE-1N sights with passive night vision). Vision 40 was obtained only in 2016 (CKE-1T sights with TI). These versions might be added.

95 ZUR23-2KG Jodek (Polish ZU-23 with Grom missiles of 2002) - FC should be 20 (now 15), like unit 619 of the same year with the same family sights CKE-2 (it can engage targets flying 500 m/s, comparing to 300 m/s in case of ZAP-23).
Vision should be 0, and 30 only from 2004 2005 (CKE-2N sights, as above)

584 Dzik 2 - (class Gun APC Wheeled) - it isn't used in infantry recce units, but exclusively as APC for Military Gendarmerie Special Units (Oddziały Specjalne Żandarmerii Wojskowej), created around the same time...

There could be created such special unit (class Police?), named eg. OS ZW Squad or SpecZW Squad (or section). They were used among others in some peacekeeping duties in Africa. I guess the squad should be around 6 men, armament is mostly #026 wz.96 Beryl SMG and MP-5. ...

From 2016 they use Plasan SandCat, named Szop in Poland (carry 8)

I asked at Zandarmeria Wojskowa fb page, and a section has 8 man, currently armed with MP-5 and HK416.
Szop (SandCat) vehicles are armed with Mk 17 GL or 7.62mm minigun (some generic light MRV icon might be used, like 680 or 7718)

[Pibwl]

I've found great article about ATGM in Polish service until 1989, for the first time making wider usage of archives ("Nowa Technika Wojskowa" 2/2021) - some dates, which I tried to figure out years ago from partial sources, might be corrected:

30 BRDM Trzmiel - in 1962 there were only few launchers delivered for training, and they appeared in units from mid-63 (now 1/62). Withdrawn from service already by 12/78 (now 89) (stored until 1985, but not included in mobilization plans).

Would need a change in 082 SP-ATGM Platoon, as the first unit.

433 GAZ-69 Trzmiel - same as above, but delivered to units only in 1965. Rare vehicle, used only in airborne division.

24 BRDM-2 Malutka2 - delivered only on 1974 (now 73).
Wrong name - it's not Malutka-2, but Malutka-P (could be BRDM2 Malutka-P, just Malutka-P, or 9P133 Malutka-P)

33 BRDM Malutka (Malutka-M) - most probably only two launchers were used for training (other documents indicate 12 vehicles, but it is less reliable, and in 1971 only two are mentioned)

34 BRDM-2 Konkurs - used in units only from 1985 (now 84).
Probably withdrawn by now, but I have no precise info.

73 Fagot ATGM - appeared in units already in 1977 (now 79)

481 Para Fagot ATGM - not used by airborne forces at all at that time (I don't know how about later 490-491 units)

638 Metis Para ATGM - already withdrawn (around 2010?, after an advent of Spike)

794 WOT JavelinTeam - may be available even earlier [now 1/22] - in 6/21 first batch of operators completed training and first ones were fired.

[blazejos]

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as Rosomak M-3
They were used in Afganistan and Chad and after that returned to Poland. Here were put in storages and now are rebuild to new variant

Rosomak-S which is transporter for two Spike-LR sets. Visible is that small tower will be removed and probably many changes inside


source about Rosomak M-3 https://zbiam.pl/wojsko-chce-kolejne-rosomaki-m-3/
source about rebuilding to Rosomak S https://zbiam.pl/przekazanie-kto-rosomak-s/

in December 2021 was mentioned that all ordered vehicles are already rebuild to version which is know by nickname "SpikeBus"
https://zbiam.pl/artykuly/nowe-rosomaki-s-juz-w-wojsku/


Here also photo of Polish airborne PWA Aero with mortar mentioned earlier which is in use by Polish paratroopers icon proposed in earlier post

[DRG]

Originally Posted by blazejos

Found interesting information

Rosomak APC without tower with small rotational MMG which I proposed earlier as a addition to Polish OOB is know in army as [b]Rosomak M-3

There has been a Rosomak APC named M3 with just an MMG in the OOB's for over a decade.

Just when exactly did you "propose" it's addition??

As for the Rosomak-S.......it would be nice to know if it's just a dedicated SP-ATGM vehicle or an APC with standard CC that just happens to have two Spike launchers......

OR

is it as the other article suggest it's just a APC modified slightly to accommodate 2 Spike teams

38 armored personnel carriers for the transport of anti-tank teams of Spike-LR missile sets, i.e. Rosomak-S. They were delivered to several units of the Polish Army

if it has mounted launchers it's an SP-ATGM but this is a translation issue and it was designed to accommodate 2 spike teams then it's just an APC for use by 2 ATGM teams.

According to info I have found it is........

Rosomak-S - Armored personnel carrier variant for two anti-tank teams armed with Spike anti-tank guided missile.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret. Due to time constraints can't verify back fit status of the HITFIST turrets, unless I come across something while writing this.
https://defence24.com/rosomak-with-s...pcoming-months

The new ZSSW turret just completed testing this a remote operated turret that I gather could see production next year. I would expect TI/GSR 45 or maybe better.
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/l...test-programme
https://defence24.com/armed-forces/l...-the-specifics

Just is just overall good data...
Under Production and Variants of the next...
"...with the M3 APCs equipped with additional armor. In 2008 one Rosomak was attacked by the Taliban and thanks to its add-on armour it survived a frontal hit by a RPG-7 rocket, and fired back, the returned to base safely."
https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/m...TO-Rosomak.php

A VERY CLOSE READING of the following paras could prove "enlightening" from the next ref. they are Paras 4 - 7 this will simply act as a system of "checks and balances" to for manning levels, weapons and most importantly current game protection levels against the refs supplied.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/rosomak.htm

I got other important things to do before work (Late Post today, TG.) so I gotta go!!! Hope this helps, if any further assistance is needed let me know but, I'll need a day or two.

Regards,
Pat

[Pibwl]

I was going to deal with Rosomaks in detail next week after gathering some more info, but since they have been invoked...

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

To the ROSOMAK-S yes, 2 SPIKE-LR teams.

However there just under 350 ROSOMAK armed with the Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist-30P turret and it is my understanding those turrets will be modified to carry a 2xSPIKE-LR launcher. This was discussed as early as 2015 along with a new unmanned turret.

Rosomak-S is just unarmed transport vehicle for 2 Spike crews. However, I haven't figured out yet in which formations it is used.

There were plans to merge Hitfist manned turret with Spike from the beginning, but somehow it hasn't been done and lately there are no talks on this subject anymore, especially, that Hitfist is already ageing design, and needing Italian parts.
But indeed, new ZSSW-30 Polish unmanned turred was developed in a meantime, with newest 30 mm Bushmaster (with an option for programable ammo), UKM-2000 CMG and two Spike launchers. Recently I've read, that it might enter production in 2023.

Therefore, units 679,680 Rosomak 2 should represent the vehicle used (hopefully) from 2023. No other changes are needed (unless we want to create newest generation TI). They have 4 Spikes - I don't know if there will be reloads. The name "Rosomak 2" will be most probably wrong, but might stay as for now.


Both as for basic 207 Rosomak and uparmoured 681 Rosomak 1M, an interesting detail is, that they should have no desert camo in the beginning - there should be plain green 3541 icon and maybe winter camo. Only at the end of 2009 the main staff allowed to repaint Rosomaks used in Afghanistan in sand brown camo

Also, multicolor camo 3543 was introduced on all Rosomaks during their service, but I haven't figured yet when so far (say, 2010 as well). Correction: after research, basic Rosomaks had multicolor camo from the beginning, only uparmoured ones were green.

So I propose to change desert icon of 207 Rosomak to green 3541 and make it available until 12/09, then add the second one with 3543/3544/3542 camo.

Same for 681 Rosomak M1 - I suggest to create one unit with green 3541 camo, and another with 3543/3544/3542 from around 1/10.


667 Rosomak-Rak - name should be just Rak (or SMK-120 Rak). Rak (lobster) is the vehicles's name.