Ukraine 2021(?)

[Karagin]

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

So I don't buy the propaganda coming out of the area from either side. Recall no army does everything right all the time, and given how easy it is to sit on the sidelines and judge we are all seeing things from a point of view of not being there.

I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Karagin

''''''''''given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by DRG

I can only imagine the laughter in the Kremlin when they watched Condoleezza Rice condemn Russia for invading a sovereign nation.

The irony is pretty thick

As for spin, I have watched one MSNBC "commentator" blame Trump for everything going on when it was Trump that put Sanctions on Nord Stream 2 in 2019 and it was Biden who removed them in May 2021.



"The first casualty of war is truth"

Didn't Biden back the 2014 coup in Ukraine?

Yes, truth is always lost in a war.

Try explaining to folks how infrastructure like powerplants and such are legitimate targets and you will get branded all kinds of names. I was recently kicked out of a history group for citing the Laws of Land Warfare on how structures lose any special protection IF one side or the other uses them as part of a defense or to house military equipment.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Or the Russians are using this to test out tactics and junior officers, along with cleaning out older equipment.

The Russians like to play games, they know no one really takes them seriously, and they know that given their performance in other conflicts since the 90s, NO ONE TAKES THEM SERIOUSLY. So all we keep seeing are these glowing reports of the Ukrainians doing well, but all we see on the flip side is reports of idiotic Russian moves or their tanks being stolen or this or that. Never do we see anything that shows them in another light or viewpoint.

...
I prefer facts, so far very little of that has come out of the region, and given that the American media and political parties are playing their own spin and games with things, I doubt we will ever get the facts.

Well, for last 10 days I almost do nothing but check battlefield news and read analyses, especially, that it is neighbour country...

In short, most analytics here agree, that it was not the war, that the Russians expected. Possibly trying to make it relatively "peaceful", and counting on little opposition, there were only weak missile and airforce preparation strikes. Southern direction actions were well prepared and trained, but surprisingly, on Kiev direction there were thrown two armies from Far East and Middle Asia, with worse training, older equipment and high conscript ratio. Elite 1st Tank Army was supposed to take Kharkiv, but met with strong and well prepared opposition there. Very important factor is, that most Russian conscript troops evidently had no "heart" for real war, especially that they were told, that it was basically a peacekeeping operation with people's support against the corrupt government, whose army would probably decompose. None of it appeared even close. And the people were former "brothers", speaking similar or the same language. Russian army did not evolve far from Warsaw Pact tactics, especially with little combined operation capability, while Ukrainian one was professionally trained according to NATO standards. And of course, if Russian leading columns were able to move into the country, there started problems with logistics - which was never strong and well-organized in USSR/Russia (supply convoys, protection and recovery of broken down equipment). Huge books will be written someday on this war... (provided, that it would not lead to mankind destruction).

Of course, Ukrainian side, trying to gain support and raise morale, publishes films of capturing or burning enemy equipment. They are mostly taken by National Guard territorial army, which makes ambushes in vast country. On the other hand, it is overlooked, that main burden of halting Russian advance is carried by regular Ukrainian army, with tanks and BMPs - there were reportedly fierce tank battles around Kharhkiv, Chernihiv and north of Kiev, but no reports are revealed to public. And regular soldiers are forbidden to carry mobile phones. Surely Ukrainian ground forces lost a couple thousand soldiers as well. Irregardless if there were any US interests or not, one thing is sure: noone in the 21st century is entitled to invade a neighbour in order to overthrow democratic government which does not violate human rights, or to dictate if sovereign country can be a member of some alliance, and this "special military operation" may not be justified.