OT: Star Trek Nemesis

[Magnum357]

Hey Ragnarok, ya Third Space was a pretty good movie. And it kinda hinted at Ancient B5 history too. Great Battle scences aswell. Glad to hear you liked the movie.

To Major Tom,

Ok, you do have a point about the Fleet sizes in DS9. From my understanding, Federation Territory (not to confuse explored territory which is about 10% of the Galaxy) only about 5% is Fed right? Even at 5% is a vast amount of Space. I suppose DS9 assumed that with such vast territory, Starfleets actual number of ships could range in the Thousands. But I do agree with you too that Wolf359 was stated that 40+ ships was a large chunk of Starfleets forces. It would have been better (and maybe graphically easier) if DS9 dealt with fleets of about 1/5 to 1/10 was stated. Like for example, in the DS9 episode "The Sacrifice of Angels", it was stated that the Federation fleet numbered in at 600 and the Dominions Fleet was about 1200 or 1300. Instead of these large numbers, they probably should have made it 60 Fed ships and and about 125 Dominion Vessels in the episode. That would at least keep it in Wolf359 perspective. Also, since the Federation is such a vast amount of space, and since during wars individual ships seem to cling together during wars, its very plausable that their could be a lot of fleets spread out along the front lines (say maybe 6+ fleets of 50 to 75 ships).

On the other hand, when we hear 40 ships at Wolf359, maybe most of these ships where very advanced starships (like Ent-D era vessels) while in the episode "Sacrifice of Angels" the vast majority of ships where old vessels like tons of Miranda class vessels. After all, I recall reading that Starfleet had a huge number of Mirandas (and some other similar vessels) left over from the 23rd century. They may have even recommishened old, worn out vessels that where etheir in mothballs or obsolete. Hey, they had to do something, the Dominions capability to mass produce ships (even though they were not the most sturdies vessels out their), worried the Feds and had to get as many ships on the front lines as possible.

But I do agree, it would have worked just as well if the writers just made the Fleets etheir 1/5th or 1/10th the number.

[geoschmo]

I read some interesting stuff onetime on this. It wasn't "canon" information but it sounded plausible. Some of it was from the Trek books that come out every month. They produce like 3 or four books every month by different authors. Some are good, some not so good. A lot of Trekkies don't even acknowledge them, but they can be a good source of "semi-canon" information.

Anyway, the stuff I read was on a website and I don't know if the guy made it up or read it somewhere what but he had this explanation that the Federation started a massive construction buildup after the first meeting between the Borg and the Enterprise. He said that while a lot of ships got bLasted at Wolf 359, a lot more were in the pipeline, and that that disaster caused an even bigger buildup. That basically the Federation was already producing ships at a wartime rate because of the constant threat of Borg invasion and that this all just happened to coincide with the war against the Dominion.

Geoschmo

[disabled]

Originally posted by Hadrian Tyrael S. Aventine:
Remember, the US fleet went from like 13 carriers at the start of WW2 to over 100 by the middle of WW2.

I suspect it was cheaper for the Federation to crank out smaller ships faster that have already been designed.

Larger ships like the Galaxy class became massive troopships with extra transporters isntalled and the crew levels left wide open.

Meanwhile, ships like the Ambassadors and the era of ships between Ambassador and Galaxy were either cut down in the opening wave of the war or have been exiled to maintain Federation borders.

Hey, don't be surprised if the dominion managed to push right up to earth's orbit that the Federation would start attacking with old ICBM's and maybe the NX-01. But if that happened, I would stop watching trek.

Very true, I recall seeing an interview that explained why more and more insane shis appearing too. A lot of ships were cobbled together from other ships to save time or something like that.

[ June 16, 2003, 05:14: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

[Magnum357]

Hadrian does bring up a point that at the beginning of WWII their where very few Carriers in the US arsnenal. By the End of the war, we had like over a hundred, but most of them where small "jeep carriers" (converted Freighters to launch fighters from) and were not exactly as capable as the larger Feet carriers.

I think sense the Founders don't really care how many of their Gem hedar soldiers die, I would think then that most of their small ships (maybe even their large ones too) where probaby pretty simple vessels to produce and my not be much of a match one on one. Like for example, its probably a good bet that a Galaxy Class starship could defeat a Dominion Crusier, but possible that the Dominion could produce 2 or 3 Crusiers much easier then the Feds could.

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I read some interesting stuff onetime on this. It wasn't "canon" information but it sounded plausible. Some of it was from the Trek books that come out every month. They produce like 3 or four books every month by different authors. Some are good, some not so good. A lot of Trekkies don't even acknowledge them, but they can be a good source of "semi-canon" information.

Geoschmo

Yeah, I'm one of those Trekkies who hardly ever read a Star Trek novel, until it's from Peter David or someone of that caliber. I really like the ghost-written Shatner books. They don't coordinate anything between any of the authors, and if you could track down all of the stardates, I wouldn't be surprised if 2 different novels were using the same stardates in different parts of the galaxy. That's why I like reading the Star Wars books. Not only do they get their blessing from George Lucas, but they even include all of the (Dark Horse) comics in their overall story line. Now, I must admit that I'm not particularly happy with the current storyline with the Vong, but I'll read a Star Wars book over a Star Trek book anytime. Besides, George Lucas has said that anything written is canon, unless he specifically changes it in a movie. Paramount says that unless you see it in a movie or an episode, it's not canon. Which one would you prefer?

[ September 11, 2002, 02:17: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

[Atrocities]

I remember having this very same discussion over two years ago on a long since dead Star Trek fan site. How did the Federation arm so quickly after the loss at Wolf 359 to the 600 plus ships of each fleet in the Dominion War?

The official Star Trek answer is refurbished mothballed ships, rapid development and construction of new ships, and purchasing of ships built by other parties to Federation standards.

Until the Borg attack the Federation was a research and exploration focused society with few ships for fighting. They had in fact had an on going conflict with the Cardassians as described in the 4th season episode called "The Wounded" where we were introduced to both the Cardassians and the Nebula class star ship.

Following the Borg attack the Federation began a crash course in ship design and construction, and from that the Akira, Sovereign, steamrunner, intrepid, and defiant class ships were born.

Think of it as well, like the beginnings of a SEIV game. At first you’re dedicated to exploration, until you meet a hostile enemy, then you begin researching new weapons, and ship designs. You then begin a rapid production of these ships in anticipation of war.

That is essentially what happened in the Trek universe.

[Ragnarok]

Massive bump. But for a good reason. The new trailer for Nemesis is out. It looks even better in this. Although what it looks like it they might trash the Enterprise. Which sucks. But none the less it looks like a awesome movie. Go HERE! {Link}