just one battles per turn

[Phoenix-D]

-planetary combat

To what?

-units (fighters, drones, ground units etc.) as such. I liked the system of SE3 more, with fixed stats of units. It was simpler and had the same flair

Must disagree. There is a LARGE difference between fighters armed with guns, and fighters armed with rocket pods! Especially in mods. Same thing for the other units.

-supply should be a resource (like organics)
Ehh..

-just one battle per turn/fleet

Must continue to disagree, it would lead to cheap crap more than anything else IMO (line the system with one-engine escorts!)

-simpler diplomatic model (one of reasons the AI dont work good is that the diplo model is not really thought out very good. There are too many choices which dont have much impact in the game)

Also disagree. Removing something just because the AI can't use it is bad. Just have the AI ignore it if that's the case!

-people which operate facilities

Ehm.

-better immigration rules

Hmm?

-more and more dangerous internal problems (rebels, pirates, dangerous technologies etc.) to force the player to have internal security fleets and units.

Maybe.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, regarding the "One-battle-per-turn" thing:
That IS included in SE4. There is a tech to get around it, though: Multiplex Tracking.

Each vehicle can only attack once per combat round, except for opportunity fire (point defense). With multiplex you can divide your firepower into a few attacks each round.

A lot of those changes can be modded:

-planetary combat
I have modded it so that it Lasts years, and reinforcements can be added from both sides of the conflict...

- Units
You like the complex ship design, but not units design???
Whatever. You can easily mod things so that only one component can fit on each unit, and that one component has all of the fixed stats for a particular tech level.

- Supply is a resource
I've done this for P&N PBW (v2.6)

-just one battle per turn/fleet
Very silly, IMO. These ships have an entire month to fight various battles. But you could give ships 1MP max, and play that way, if you really want to...

-simpler diplomatic model
It is already pretty darn simple. LIke you, hate you, treaty level X, give stuff.

-people which operate facilities
See Proportions, P&N, all kinds of mods do this.

-better immigration rules
If you mean the shipping around of billions of people in a single huge transport, see Proportions.

--more and more dangerous internal problems (rebels, pirates, dangerous technologies etc.) to force the player to have internal security fleets and units.
Intel typically does this; Planets deep in your empire can rebel. You could add random event rebellions, and pirate attacks, and whatnot...

SE4 is what you make it.

[ September 17, 2002, 21:08: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[klausD]

SJ,
planetary combat:
maybe it can modded but not in the way I want it to have. Just simple.

units:
your argument is a very good one. Why do I want to have units with fixed stats, while I like at the same time the ship-design?
The reason I would like to have units changed is that for me units and ships are different parts of the game. Units are not just "little" ships for me. They are rather mobile components and they should be treated like this. Sometimes fewer options are better than many. And for units I think this is true. Especially the design of ground units is not really the time worth. I liked the system of SE3 and its predecessors where you had just premade Fighter I-XII or so. It was clean and easy for the player to modify and AI to comprehend.

supply as resource -
If you have already modded this I am wondering that there are posters at this forum which want to have this feature too. Are these all people who dont try your mod? I will try it the next time I am setting up a new game. (Does your mod provide manual resupply and supply-warehouses?)

-just one battle per turn/fleet
Very silly, IMO. These ships have an entire month to fight various battles. But you could give ships 1MP max, and play that way, if you really want to... I dont know what is more silly - my wish or your proposal?

-people which operate facilities - all mods do this? I just tried the TDM mod, but there was nothing in this respect. Maybe you misunderstood me: I meant: population which operate facilities.

-with better immigration rules I meant good rules for having alien population (conquered or immigrated) in the own empire. (realationships between your race and the foreigners, living- conditions of the aliens etc.)

-internal problems: maybe with modding you can increase such events, but this is by far not enough for me. Eg modding as good as it can be dont force an empire to have internal security personnel and fleets.

klausD

[Suicide Junkie]

-people which operate facilities - all mods do this? I just tried the TDM mod, but there was nothing in this respect. Maybe you misunderstood me: I meant: population which operate facilities.

TDM is not a mod, its the must-have collection of improved AIs.

Proportions, and P&N and a few other mods do it, not ALL.

maybe it can modded but not in the way I want it to have. Just simple.

Perhaps a better definition of "Planetary Combat" is required.

Do you mean combat while attacking planets, or the combat between troops dropped on the surface?

supply as resource -
If you have already modded this I am wondering that there are posters at this forum which want to have this feature too. Are these all people who dont try your mod? I will try it the next time I am setting up a new game. (Does your mod provide manual resupply and supply-warehouses?)

Not everybody has played P&N, and the supply = resource Version of P&N cannot have AIs playing it, so it is not very well known.

I dont know what is more silly - my wish or your proposal?

Sorry.

I think the whole scale of things is off here.
In a month, an army could easily attack many cities, or even sweep through a small country.
IMO, the "one attack per turn" type rules only become "realistic" at the tactical combat level.
EG: Do you shoot at the missile base about to reload and fire at you, or the Cruiser bearing down on you with Ripper Beams?

[President_Elect_Shang]

Where to start?
1)Phoenix-D: thanks for the *I* correction.
2)DocShane: Have you tried games like Imperator? That’s where I “cut my teeth”. Supremacy, StarFire, Axis and Allies, the list goes on and on.
3)I agree with DocShane’s point that “Most of these games assume turns Lasting seconds or minutes. Only one attack could reasonably be accomplished within that period.” That to me seems to be a point we are all missing. The fact is each turn of SE IV assumes one month, err I assume it does anyway. Is this in any of the documents? In one month a fleet can accomplish a lot. Even a fleet constrained to sailing on water could do a lot in 30 or so days, much less sailing in space.

[Phoenix-D]

"1)Phoenix-D: thanks for the *I* correction."

Any time

In case you somehow missed it, and didn't get that I was being a sarcastic overly-detailed person:

I was refering to the fact that any object is moving at %C at any given time, including myself. (The I, the * being empathis)

Phoenix-D

[Krakenup]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
What I think you are missing KlausD (I too am a big board game fan) is that most board games started (and copied) the one per turn rule because they assumed movement (of non-mechanized units) as a factor. We are talking about ships that are moving at x% of c here. It is not unreasonable for a fleet moving at x% of c to travel to a planet, turn it into glass and move on. If any part of SE should be limited to one battle per turn it should be when a fleet engages in a ground invasion. Now that would be difficult to code in a game I would think.

It would be difficult to engage in battle without slowing down, maneuvering, and speeding back up after the battle. I think multiple battles should be possible, but that each engagement should use up an extra movement point for the attacking fleet. A ground invasion would require the use of an additional movement point. For example, a fleet with 7 movement points could move 7; or move 3, fight, and move another 3; or move two, fight, move one, attack a planet including a ground invasion,and move one more.