Proportions 2.5.2 mini-patch feature preview

[PvK]

I.F. makes a very good point about the retrofit loophole, I think. You guys talked me out of doing that change for 2.5.3 anyway, because of the existing PBW games that are so far along, so that change won't appear till 3.0.

However, I do have a solution, I think. Move all the high organic construction base abilities to vehicle abilities of a new type of base: the Major Construction Yard (better names, anyone?). Since you cannot change vehicle when retrofitting, you'll have to build it, and of course it will have a fairly large organics cost. I'll tinker with the other organics costs for 3.0 too, so for instance, you won't be able to built large amounts of infantry without one of these, and so on.

PvK

[oleg]

Originally posted by PvK:
I.F. makes a very good point about the retrofit loophole, I think. You guys talked me out of doing that change for 2.5.3 anyway, because of the existing PBW games that are so far along, so that change won't appear till 3.0.

However, I do have a solution, I think. Move all the high organic construction base abilities to vehicle abilities of a new type of base: the Major Construction Yard (better names, anyone?). Since you cannot change vehicle when retrofitting, you'll have to build it, and of course it will have a fairly large organics cost. I'll tinker with the other organics costs for 3.0 too, so for instance, you won't be able to built large amounts of infantry without one of these, and so on.

PvK

Why not make high-organic producing/high organic cost SY base only component and low-organic SY ship only component ? Then you can not use retrofit trick.

[Fyron]

But then you can't build remote BSYs.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
But then you can't build remote BSYs.

With Oleg's suggestion of "low" organic rates on the ship-only components, it seems to me you could still build remote BSY's, but it would always take a long time to build the first one in a given sector. There would also be no BSY's with the low organic build rates.

PvK

[Fyron]

Ok... you can't effeciently build BSYs. Trying to solve one problem is creating another (IMO, worse) problem.

[PvK]

You can efficiently build them once you have one, or once you have a planetary shipyard. That's the whole idea. What's the problem?

[Puke]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
"What is to stop me from building a normal BSY on site, then retrofitting it to a BSY with high organics rate, and building the colony ship there? "

If the organics cost is different enough, that will stop it..

Phoenix-D

no.. its percent of total cost of the difference. not percent of each resource. the organic cost would have to be high enough to prohibit any retrofit, or organic yards would have to be significantly more expensive than normal yards.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:
You can efficiently build them once you have one, or once you have a planetary shipyard. That's the whole idea. What's the problem?

But that takes forever in Proportions. And you can't get a PSY at a WP, or orbiting a star, or in a nebula, storm, empty space, etc.

[PvK]

Well, the point of the change is to make it so that you can only spread your production abilities about as efficiently as (or at least, not much more efficiently than) can by done via colony ships. Especially, your ability to build colony ships. Because, it doesn't make a lot of sense to be able to colonize much more quickly and efficiently by sending out a space yard ship to build a colony ship at the colony location, than by sending out a colony ship built at the homeworld.

Supposedly in Proportions, a colony ship includes a large amount of the things necessary to establish a new colony capable of supporting signifigant populations and industry and so on, on a completely alien and probably very inhospitable planet. Many of these things are only available in sufficient quantities, and/or buildable, at a homeworld or fairly established colony. These sorts of things would be represented by organic resources, and the ability to build with them at a location.

The requirements for building military equipment are considerably less diverse, and can mostly be covered by the kinds of things represented by mineral resources and mineral construction ability.

Moreover, one of the design ideas was that by making colony ships slow and expensive, the task of colonizing distant worlds would require planning, investment, escorts, and danger of attack. The fast SYS tactic tends to shortcut this.

Now, the maintenance costs of a spaceyard do abstractly acount for the expense of supplying construction materials to it (via those invisible small resource transports we have to assume exist). However, in the current state of the mod, it becomes both faster and more efficient to build colony ships at or near their destination using space yard ships, after a few systems' distance from planetary shipyards. I don't think the technique should be entirely prohibited, but I do think it should be made less efficient.

So some combination of the organics cost method we've been discussing, and/or adjusting the speed and cost of space yard ships, seems needed to restore the goal of making it more difficult to spread the production base and colonies into deep space.

PvK

[oleg]

What if to add "engine" ability to SY with value 0 ? Then it will slow down SY ship to the speed of colony ship ! But then you will need another SY for bases only without "engine"...