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[Ragnarok]

After following the AI Death match contest going on I thought it would be interesting to do this with humans. I don't know if it has been done before or anything though. It would be a series of 1 on 1 games. This is how it would work, we would have 20 players sign up.
Set up 2 games on PBW with 10 players in each. Play those games to the lasp empire standing.
I would keep track of who was the first to be killed off, then the second, third, and so it goes on down the line.
I would do this to each game and by doing so would create a seeding system. W
hoever was first to lose in the game would be 10th seed, then next would be 9th seed, etc. down the line.
This would be for both games. Then we would take the two 10 seeds, put them together, the two 9 seeds and put them together, etc. I thought about 10 seed vs. 1 seed but that wouldn't be exactly fair now would it?
I would keep track of who won and they would move on. All the way until we have a finalist from bracket #1 and bracket #2.

What does everyone think of this idea? Would it work? Let me know, ideas, comments, anything...
Questions are also welcome...

[ December 05, 2002, 18:30: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

[geoschmo]

Lazarus had a one on one tournament a while back. Actually it may still be going on. He used a first round format similer to world cup soccer. He also had all the games on a preamade map, which was interesting, but maybe not that needed for one on one games. Personal opinion I guess.

Sounds like fun. No reason you'd have to limit it to 20 players though is there? Actually if you want to have even brackets and no byes you need to have a number of players that is a power of 2. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, etc.

10 versus 1 is not a problem at all actually. That's how most one on one tourney's with seeding work. Other alternatives are a pure random draw for the first round. The speed someone wins in the first round is nto neccesarily an indication of their skill anyway. It might tell you more about the person they beat then about them.

Anyway, sounds fun. I'd prolly give it a go.

Geoschmo

EDIT: Oh, I misread that. You mean to have a ten man game as a seeding game. That's doab;e I suppose, but you realize the ten man seeding games woudl take about 4 times as long to finish as the rest of the tourney combined.

[ December 04, 2002, 03:35: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Ragnarok]

"Lazarus had a one on one tournament a while back. Actually it may still be going on. He used a first round format similer to world cup soccer."

I figured someone had come up with this idea. I still want to give it a shot though.

"He also had all the games on a preamade map, which was interesting, but maybe not that needed for one on one games. Personal opinion I guess."

I doubt I'd do a premade map. I think it would be better to just use a generated map for each game. That way by the end of the tourney no one would have the map memorized.

"No reason you'd have to limit it to 20 players though is there? Actually if you want to have even brackets and no byes you need to have a number of players that is a power of 2. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, etc."

That is true. I didn't think about having byes by the second round. I'm willing to go for a 32 player format. 16 players in each bracket. If it is possible to get that many players willing to play. If not we will have to go with a 16 player format with 8 in each bracket.

"10 versus 1 is not a problem at all actually. That's how most one on one tourney's with seeding work. Other alternatives are a pure random draw for the first round."

Right you are, (as always, eh? ), if I did a pure random draw how would be the best way to go about this? Once everyone signs up just start assigning players to others?

"EDIT: Oh, I misread that. You mean to have a ten man game as a seeding game. That's doab;e I suppose, but you realize the ten man seeding games woudl take about 4 times as long to finish as the rest of the tourney combined."

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of doing. But like you mentioned it would take forever to play the seeding games. Thus I think having a pure random draw would be best.
Speaking of which, I think I might have figured a way of doing so. It's a rather old trick. Get all players signed up, then write their names on paper, put them in a hat, and draw. Like I said, it's an old trick but it is a very effective one. And I think it would be more fair then me picking players and assigning them slots. People would probably think I would be working the tourney in my favor then.

But anyways, I think I will go through with this. Just got to get the bugs worked out of it.

[Suicide Junkie]

Or get an uninterested third party to pick the random numbers

[capnq]

I doubt I'd do a premade map. I think it would be better to just use a generated map for each game. That way by the end of the tourney no one would have the map memorized.

The idea of a premade map is to equalize everybody's chances within each round. You'd use a different map for each round, not the same one all the way through.

It might even be a good idea to have different people make each round's map, to prevent any overall pattern in design that one mapmaker might use.

[Ragnarok]

Ok, I have been thinking about this a little bit more. I think for starters we will go with a 32 player format. Two brackets of 16 players in each. Assuming we can get that many players that is.

The players in each brackets opponents will be drawn at total randomness. Either using the hat method or using as Geo suggested the random number generation. Either way it would be totally random so that no bickering would take place about being put against an unfair opponent. Which really there isn't such thing as unfair, with a game like this anyone can win against anyone.

The map issue I think for each round we will have one map. For the first round with all 32 players we will have a map, then when everyone moves onto the next round of 16, we will use another map. This would be in the best interest for the players in each round so that a person in bracket 1, round 1, does not get a better map then a person in bracket 2, round 1.

A possiblity for game setup is for the two players in the game to decide on settings. In other words if the two wanted full tech start they could do so, as long as both parties are ok with it. Same goes for Intel, or starting planets, or planet value, etc. Or would this create some problems? I'm thinking it's possible that it would create some problems but it's just a possibility that I thought up.

Anyways, so if you want in on this tourney, sign up here. It will take a couple weeks or more I'm sure to get everyone that wants in signed up. If we have trouble getting 32 players we will either go down to a 16 player format. If we are somewhere in between those numbers, well, we will figure something out.

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Note: Where your name is realitive to the numbers here will not have anything to do with your seeding as it is completly random. See above.

[geoschmo]

What I did in the first tourney when I needed random seeding was just an updated Version of the hat thing. I wrote all the names down and assigned them each a number in the order they joined. Then I did a search on google for a website with a random number generator. Found a ton of them. Anyway I picked one that would give me a string of random numbers between 1 and n and, violin, random seeding.

For that matter you might be able to find a shareware program that will take your names and generate a rondom bracket for you.

Course the hat thing works fine too.

The main draw back to the pure one on one tourney is what happens when a player drops out. I guess his opponent would get a free pass to the next round. Of course it's all random and it's all for fun, so even if it happens maybe noone will complain about it. Hopefully not anyway.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

There is also a way you could have the first round of the tourney be non-poers of two. You would just need some equitable method of determining which players got byes for the second round. For example:

Say you get 26 people sign up for the tourney. So you have 13 one on one games in the first round. The idea will be to do whatever it takes to get down to 8 players for round 3 from the 13 players left after round 1. So for round 2 you would have 5 one on one games and 3 players with byes. That would leave you with 8 players in round 3. The byes could be given to the three players in round 1 that knock off their opponent in the fewest number of turns.

Is this fair? Not totally. As we said before the numebr of turns it takes to knock someone off could be as much an indication of a lack of skill of the loser. But mabye it's more fair than excluding those 10 people from the tourney that otherwise wouldn't have got a chance to play.

EDIT: For that matter, the byes could be done randomly as well. Simply set up the brackets early on, then randomply stick people into each spot in the bracket. They will all see at the begining of round one who will get the byes if there are any. No muss, no fuss.

The thing you just have to remind anybody that starts to talk about something not being fair is that in a one on one tourney it's all up to you. If you don't win the tourney, you can't say it's because someone else got an easier road to the final, because you are responsible for your own games and that's all that matters.

Geoschmo

[ December 04, 2002, 13:09: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Ragnarok]

BUMP

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[Zarix]

Ragnarok, you might want to change the topic to something like "Sign up for new tournament". I would join but I am already in two other tournaments.