Worst Nations in Each Era

[Baalz]

Well, I don't disagree with many of your points Micah/Zeldor, and as I mention I'm talking more of MA Atlantis and the conversation is getting a bit crossed. I will say, having played a fair number of games as aquatic nations I find it impossible to overstate the strategic value of attacking from the water to land the first (and possibly second) time. As I say with that sub/battleship analogy you're pretty undeniably weaker than a top notch land nation all things being equal. That said, I've never (in say 10 games) gotten to the point that I controlled the seas and didn't relatively shortly attack someone on the coast in an overwhelming sneak attack, which generally leads to a very good sized empire difficult to attack (because it's 2/3rds underwater) and a war ally. Given this massive strategic advantage I think it's appropriate that the underwater nation be somewhat disadvantaged in a fair fight. I'll concede you've got an uphill fight to get to that point as EA/MA Atlantis given their underwater opposition, but it's not a shutout and is appropriate for a more experience vs less experienced matchup.

[Sombre]

I think it kinda is a shutout if it's atlantis vs oceania in EA in the same sea. The knights of the deep are just savage and generally Oceania can go right for you without having to worry about overextending and getting ganked by someone else (unless rlyeh is also underwater and next to them rather than you, if they're next to you, you just get double stomped in a joint attack).

[Baalz]

In a 3 way brawl I think it's more likely Oceana and R'yleh view each other as imminent threats and they both try to get Atlantis to help them jump on each other. Not that it couldn't happen, but seems pretty shortsighted to both jump on Atlantis. In a 1 on 1 EA Oceana in the water is a beast, no doubt. I do think though that the deep atlanteans could be pretty nasty in this matchup with light research. Not having to worry about their MR, with a good strength + strength of giants + 2-3 attacks each + very low resources and fairly low gold cost I think you might be able to field enough to soak up Oceana's first strike, have enough attacks to overwhelm their (W blessed?) defense and hit hard enough to chip through their (E blessed?) protection. Spam some numbness on them and sprinkle in some earth meld...uphill struggle I'll give you, but I don't see a shutout.

[TheDemon]

The problem with atlantis's units is the low protection and low defense means they soak more hits, which means they hit the "heavy losses" morale check far more often than a unit for Oceania. They're pretty bad troops to be facing down a lance charge + multiple attacks opponent. At the same time, their MR maxes out at 10, and can be as low as 7, which is devestating against R'lyeh. Basically, Atlantis doesn't have the army tools to combat either enemy nation in either age.

In terms of mage tools, you have destruction/earth meld in EA, which will take care of a careless Oceania player, provided you get at least one year to research Alt 4. You have nothing in your arsenal against R'lyeh. In MA, you have Body Ethereal for your lobsters, but your earth mages are 1/4 and don't come in time in enough #s against Ichycentaur spam. In other words, you're relying on luck against Oceania. Against R'lyeh, your MR options are limited to Ench 4 for Antimagic, and even then you don't have any high-morale chaff.

Assuming the underwater war is still in contention after year 1 is pretty naive. To me this means you need a mage solution to your army problems within one 4-level path. MA has a few options for both potential targets, EA has an iffy option against Oceania and no options against R'lyeh. Neither age is terrible, but its an uphill battle in both.

[Baalz]

Question, what does EA R'yleh have to field against several Basalt Kings kitted with a 29-30 MR and other thug gear? With a E4 blessing & summon earthpower along with a girdle of strength they've got a 9 reinvig which will cover a lead shield and armor stacking on the iron will and amulet. Taking something along the lines of an awake ghost king with E4/N4 and whatever else you wanted would give you everything you needed including an early research jumpstart. Throw in some earth and water(ice) elementals for the big fights and I'm not really seeing a helplessness here against R'yleh. If you can get to ench-5 enlivened statues seem like they'd give R'yleh a whole lot of trouble also.

[P3D]

EA Atlantis won't have that gear ready in numbers before meeting R'lyeh. Research-wise it is not problem unless Difficult Research, but even assuming a hammer, that equipment is 10E 3S +12?(armor+helmet+boots+weapon), and 6 months to forge. A lot of E gems.

[TheDemon]

Originally Posted by Baalz

Question, what does EA R'yleh have to field against several Basalt Kings kitted with a 29-30 MR and other thug gear? With a E4 blessing & summon earthpower along with a girdle of strength they've got a 9 reinvig which will cover a lead shield and armor stacking on the iron will and amulet. Taking something along the lines of an awake ghost king with E4/N4 and whatever else you wanted would give you everything you needed including an early research jumpstart. Throw in some earth and water(ice) elementals for the big fights and I'm not really seeing a helplessness here against R'yleh. If you can get to ench-5 enlivened statues seem like they'd give R'yleh a whole lot of trouble also.

Even with an awake SC pretender, you're good as dead within 16 turns, when you're about halfway to the research needed to kit and buff said thugs. I'm not talking about level 4 research, I'm talking about what you can reach during the first year, which might include one level 4 school if you took a research pretender. Do you have a solution in that scenario?


I should note, I've played water nations four times. Once I started with 3 provs between our caps in an ocean. The second time, I had a 4 prov buffer in an open lake. Third time, 3 prov buffer in an open lake. The last time starts were hand-placed at opposite ends of a river, probably about 10 provs between.

I'm not saying you'll never get to several mid-level research schools, but it doesn't represent the average underwater game at all.

[Micah]

Baalz: Excellent discussion. Maybe I've overstated my case by getting a bit carried away on Atlantis' weaknesses, but the tweaks I suggested for them seem pretty modest, no? Those were the minor price drop on the Kings (which is somewhat justified in that you lose the 50g I'm suggesting just off your cap's admin value being crap) and the major one: a cost effective researcher.

I'm not suggesting they get anything that wouldn't leave them "somewhat disadvantaged" in a fair fight...BK's don't quite measure up in the SC wars toe-to-toe and Atlantis' troops at large are not well-suited for land combat compared to land nations, especially if you want to win without a ton of attrition. This is as it should be, the mobility advantage and first strike capability make this a very interesting exercise in tactics and target selection and there's a lot of give and take there.

What I think should NOT be is that they have terrible magic diversity (especially in traditional late-game paths) AND what I think may be the worst researchers in the game. That just seems like a screwjob to me, and like it is too much of a disadvantage to overcome unless you simply outclass your opposition. It is also mostly a question of math, not strategy, which doesn't make for a whole lot of fun. (Unless coming up with clever solutions to being magically dominated are fun for you, in which case maybe Atlantis is great as-is...this is said half-seriously, since I think that would be a perfectly good thing to enjoy, but shouldn't be the basis for nation-balancing. Also, again, while it is possible to pull this off it again relies on simply outplaying your opponent on some level) Adding a cheap researcher option gives Atlantis a boost that doesn't show up til mid-late game when upkeep costs are really kicking in (right about when being amphibious starts to be much less dominating than it was), and also gives them additional strategic choices to make...do I build a combat-ready mage, or a researcher? That seems like a good tweak to make to me, and one that would bring them closer to "somewhat" disadvantaged in a fair fight, up from their current level of "terribly."

And I haven't played a proper early game with Atlantis vs the other EA nations (the one I lost was via a backstab) so I will reserve comment on the balance of power there and possible early tweaks to help Atlantis on that front...the late game thing mostly boils down to simple math and looking at their paths, fights versus blessed knights and the mechanics of mind blasts are a bit too much for me to theorize on. =)

[Baalz]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from on paper Micah, but I'm basing my position on the games I've done well with Atlantis (again, MA), and I just don't see the massive late game power gap you're describing in practice. Part of it is probably lightless lanterns, part of it is (assuming you've made it that far) controlling the water you have a lot more freedom to castle up, invest in research items/mages, not build troops, not forge combat gear, not loose combat mages etc. durring the mid game boom than you do in the wide open melee on land. Even moving fairly briskly to get onto land you can clobber the hell out of somebody already in a tight war without using too many resources. I don't know, I suppose my argument isn't terribly compelling based on foggy recollection from a sample set of two games. My experience actually playing them in MP is early game requires some fancy footwork against the underwater opposition, sneak attack onto land is *easy* gains which can likely be repeated a second time if it's a big game, pulling into late game you've got a lot of raiding mobility, powerful battle evocations and powerful alterations from recruit anywhere mages and a good income (voice of tiamat) on a easier than average to defend kingdom. Granted EA Atlantis does seem a bit weaker on that front, Mages of the Deep are vastly inferior to Kings of the Deep and about the same price so you probably have a point there. EA Atlantis does seem to suffer from having nothing at all exciting to recruit from non-cap forts, a cheap research mage might work well there. MA though I think is fine.

[Micah]

Two questions about your games Baalz: Was there any vet opposition inland in them, and what was the shape and amount of water on the maps? Map layout has a HUGE impact on how well you can do with any water nation...I've been basing my thoughts on a "lake" scenario since that's where I played my game as MA rlyeh (my only real UW nation experience aside from the previously mentioned backstabbing), as opposed to a "river" scenario, which makes a drastic difference in raiding potential and mobility. (random maps tend to be lakes from what I've seen.) If you have a lake that means you lose the advantage of "recruit anywhere" units, since you can't recruit anywhere, just near your cap in the water, as well as the obvious problems raiding and keeping territory the farther inland it gets. I'm certainly willing to believe Atlantis can do great if it has a lot of coast to play with, but that hasn't been my experience in the games I've played. (And I don't think adding the suggested tweaks would make them OP by any stretch in a river scenario, but it would get them to be much more playable in a lake scenario.)