Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[Sombre]

It's usually bad to remove options, but that doesn't necessarily equate to removing or changing elements. You could quite well be increasing game options by removing a feature which distorts the game or prevents other features from being realised as intended.

In terms of this thread, the fact that some dominant strategies tend towards micromanagement can remove the option of playing competitively if you simply don't have the time or willpower to deal with the MM.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Gathering all your forgers in one or two places just to save on MM is a guaranteed way to get yourself in major trouble to stuff like lab fires or mass remote killing spells (flames from sky). With the former event putting the majority of your hammers and boosters out of commission for a turn, and the latter losing you said hammers and boosters. And domes won't help against a concentrated ritual attack, which is all the more likely to happen if you enemies notice your gathering all your important mages in one place.

That would require my enemy to know exactly where I have my forgers without me having any idea of it, which should be something near impossible as he can't see my paths (as I have maybe 15 other castles with a lot of mages sitting in).
But there is of course a truth in it that remote spells (and I actually like them) are really bad MM for the victim.

But the more spread out they are, the more MM increases. Hence the claim being made that banning Hammers will reduce MM. (and this is a thread about reducing MM after all)

Yeah sure, banning hammers will reduce MM. But removing all gems will also. I'm not even very much opposed to removing hammers, but they are hardly a core problem. Unless of course everyone needs 3h only to hunt his hammers, but therefore working out where the time is wasted is much better than suggesting bans that can save some micro.

[Sombre]

Hammers removed to eliminate micro makes sense because hammers themselves add virtually nothing to the game but are incredibly common and powerful to the point that you essentially have to use them.

Not many things like that.

[Micah]

I disagree that hammers add nothing to the game. It may look like it at first glance since virtually all forging uses them, but they do have an effect.

Hammers enforce a steady flow of forging. Without them you could have all your mages churn out items at the drop of a hat with no penalty. Thus I think they do add some depth to the game, since you're rewarded for planning your item needs in advance.

I also think the amount of MM they cause is overstated, most of my hammers stay on the same mage turn after turn, and when they don't the addition of the l hotkey makes swapping them a breeze (it was a lot nastier when you had to navigate the scroll menu, especially since forging tends to be done where there are a lot of units.) Most of the mm-intensive forging headaches I run into are due to booster shuffling, not hammer shuffling.

Regardless, it seems from the various responses that the issue is contentious enough to make their removal in any sort of widely-used mod a failure, though I suppose they could be included in the optional section if Wraith wants.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

But removing all gems will also. I'm not even very much opposed to removing hammers, but they are hardly a core problem. Unless of course everyone needs 3h only to hunt his hammers, but therefore working out where the time is wasted is much better than suggesting bans that can save some micro.

Yes, exactly! Gems themselves are a big cause of MM. In CBM summoning individuals demons is cheap - the logic being that the real cost is mage time, not blood slaves. If this logic could be extended to everything you could do away with gems. So aside from perhaps globals or unique items everything would be free (or as close to free as the game will allow). But the only way I can see to do that is to limit the number of mages and that drastically changes the balance and nature of the game (though it could make for a fun, quick playing, mod).

In addition to that, the game doesn't scale well. The more units you have, the more MM you'll have. If there was a way to have the game scale from x units at the beginning to 100x (instead of 1000x) then you could really reduce MM. The best you can do to simulate this is to have smaller maps with fewer players.

In the end, I think you can only change things around the periphery - the cause of the vast majority of MM is built into the game itself. I don't mean that to sound negative: trying to change the things that we can control is worthwhile but it won't solve the bulk of the problem.

[Illuminated One]

Adding to that I mean maybe the main thing is simply that above a certain point it becomes to much for anyone to manage.
I mean seriously, you are not memorizing what paths even 50 mages have and where they all are.
Or how are you sorting your items when they are not in a lab? Do you just plan 3 weeks ahead so that the 60 new forges don't destroy your order? Sort anew almost every turn?
Or do you just scrap the sorting and start endless searches for that thing you know you had somewhere?

[Gandalf Parker]

If less gems is at least a partially acceptable answer, then dont we already have that by setting sites to a very low setting when creating the game?
--magicsites X Magic site frequency 0-75 (default 40)
Setting events rare would help also.

That would lower everyone equally. Of course some nations have a naturally high gem income from national sites, which could be boosted by pretender selection, but that is part of the balance for those nations which they pay for in other areas (that people usually complain about). That all just amounts to a different game-feel for us all to enjoy. And its already been built-in by the developers.

[Sombre]

You mean MA Pythium? LA Ermor? They certainly are weak to make up for their extra gem income.

I can't think of any others which differ in national site income. I certainly haven't seen people complaining about the way these nations pay for their higher gem income in other areas.

[Psycho]

MA Pythium is weak?

[Sombre]

Sarcasm is possible?