PPB Rebalance Poll

[Taera]

well right. so nothing is going to change?
is it possible for the beta testers here to at least suggest this as a possible change to the game?
Say the most popular Versions - decreasing the damage and enchancing the research way.

Rollo: lol right

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I think we decided we can't agree.

In some way, I agree with you Geo!

But in the other hand, if you check the poll result, you will see that 71% of the people believe that the PPB should be changed in some way, and 29% believe that's ok like now.

[geoschmo]

[quote]Originally posted by Master Belisarius:

In some way, I agree with you Geo!

But in the other hand, if you check the poll result, you will see that 71% of the people believe that the PPB should be changed in some way, and 29% believe that's ok like now.

True MB, but there is an old political addage that goes something like, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

My point being that the poll results could also be viewed to support no change as that is the single largest vote getter of the choices given with 29%. You are assuming that everybody that voted for a particular change would support ANY change, and you cannot say that for sure.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

You are assuming that everybody that voted for a particular change would support ANY change, and you cannot say that for sure.

Sounds like time for another poll

[tesco samoa]

good. Point. Geo.

I say leave it for the modders. It can be fixed that way.

Also nice eyeball where did you get that ??

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie.:
Sounds like time for another poll

There's something we can agree on!

I have done just that...
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=23;t=005803

Please vote.

Geoschmo

[ June 04, 2002, 00:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
True MB, but there is an old political addage that goes something like, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

My point being that the poll results could also be viewed to support no change as that is the single largest vote getter of the choices given with 29%. You are assuming that everybody that voted for a particular change would support ANY change, and you cannot say that for sure.

Geoschmo[/QB]

Yep George, you're right... and I think that although a new poll could be started and still the motion to change the PPB could have most of the votes, you could argue that 48 persons (the votes for the poll that Taera started), can't represent all the SE4G players, and you would be right again... then, I give up.

In my view, the only argument posted here to consider the PPB balanced, was some more cost in mineral/radioactives (and IMHO is a very very very very little drawback considering that you could kill your enemy if he is not using PPB too).

I'll not write all the reasons to consider this weapon unbalanced again... I wrote several good arguments here (IMHO), and don't want to be redundant.
What really make me feel somewhat frustrated, is that looking the numbers and comparing the PPB with others weapons, it's pretty obvious (at least to me) to see that doesn't exist a better weapon than PPB for most games, and in my view, is so easy to research that makes it an unbalanced weapon.
As you said, the PPB is the king during the mid game (maybe the DUC or the Missiles are the king in the early, and the APB or WMG or Acid Globulae or Shield Depleter + Other Weapon, etc are the kings in the late game). But considering that most multiplayers games are decided before reach the late game, then, obviously the PPB is the answer.
Anyway, I'm tired and dislike the endless discussions, then, I don't want to continue.

Tesco Samoa: I expected to see fixed the PPB into the original SE4, because MM have fixed the ID... and because most of the PBW games use the standard SE4

[ June 04, 2002, 00:53: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

[geoschmo]

Well MB, my intention was not to wear you into submission with endless argument, really.

I honestly just don't see this issue in as black and white terms as you do. I have been in as many or more SE4 multiplayer games as you, and while I don't consider myself near the skilled player as you are, perhaps my lack of success in games give me a perspective on the issue the you cannot appreciate.

You always use PBW, and you always win. You have made the conclusion then that using PPB is a recipie for success. I cannot argue that you are sucessful, but I reject the notion that you are succesful because you use PPB, that is all.

I have lost as many or more games that I have won. I have also tried several methods in my games. I have won and lost using PPB, and I have beaten and been beaten by players using PPB. In my opinioin, from my experience I do not see the extreme benefit that you see to using PPB. And I can see effective counters to a player that uses PPB, beacause I have had them used on me when I was using PPB.

So for me the question has been not simply a matter of proving a preconceived notion as it appears to have been for you. When given the statment that PPB are unbalanced, I have attempted to view it dispationetly and objectively as is possible and come up with a way to define whether or not it is in fact unbalenced.

I have attempted to view the argument from both sides, and have in fact changed my mind several times during the course of this thread. So for me at least this discussion has served a very valid purpose.

I am sorry if you have become frustrated by it, but with a problem with as many variables as this it is not always so simple to reach a conclusion. At least not for me.

But even if I disagree with you on this one issue, my respect for you as a strategist and Se4 player has no bounds. You have tought me much in our games (although they have been too infrequent to my liking ) and even more in our discussions on this forum.

Geoschmo

[Master Belisarius]

Yes George, I know that you are not trying to keep me busy! Also, I know that you're very humble talking about your skills as SE4 player!

I understand your point. A good player without use PPB, can defeat a less trained player that's using PPB.
I know (as Rollo told me in one of their mails), that a game is not only decided by the weapon: good start position, race design, expansion, politics, luck, etc,etc and the more important (as we discussed in other topic!) the
Sensors + ECM + Aggressiveness + Defenssiveness + Stealth Armor + Scattering Armor + Training factors, are decisive in a game too. For example, if you have PPB but can't hit the ships of your enemy, surely you will lose anyway.

But talking about "ideal" conditions, where both players have similar skills, similar luck, similar starting position, etc, if one guy is using the PPB but the other not... who is using the PPB will have the advantage, a big one.

I have no more arguments. Maybe this is the reason because I'm frustrated!

[Fyron]

For example, if you have PPB but can't hit the ships of your enemy, surely you will lose anyway.

I learned that the hard way.