MP: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[rdonj]

You did a manual what just now? I'm confused.

[Gandalf Parker]

Sorry.
I did a manual sending of one player file to a replacement player. The rollback also rolled back the send-out addresses file and failed to send that one file to the new person.

[rdonj]

Ah. Alright. Nothing I have to worry about then.

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by GrudgeBringer

Well, the first time I saw the poll it wouldn't let me hit one of the choices.

Ten minutes later....I hit the wrong link and was back there, tried agian and bingo, it worked.

YOU don't understand why I can't post?

Try looking at through this end when I have to go thru 10 PM's with Chris and spend all his time (not to mention mine) giving and getting orders!!!

My wife thinks my Computer is haunted as it NEVER shows the same thing she gets on hers, and I'm to dumb to know how to change it.

Grudge your not dumb! Don't say such things about yourself. However, I don't think your computer is HAUNTED either. I do remember that you had been having an extremely difficult time accessing and/or getting the forum website and posting system to work correctly for whatever reason. I know me and Chris had tried to get you sorted out (I asked for a screenshot at one time) but I don't know what has happened in the intervening time.

A note to self and others, game 2 and 3 will state clearly on the opening post, NO ROLLBACKS unless a server issue or other event occurs that the admin and host have control over. Tis a difficult thing, you want to cover a lot of eventualities and try to cover as much of the rules of the game as you can in the opening post, but you have to sacrifice completeness for brevity otherwise you end up with a 10 page opening post that no one will read. I am sure that those who have admined games can understand what I mean.

I've updated the opening post to revise my ongoing evolution of what I think is at least a good general measure of what constitutes a Vet, Intermediate, and Noob player for our purposes anyway.

Veteran: 3 or more years of Dominions (not limited to Dom3) experience (both SP and MP) and/or Hall of Fame Member (Hall of Fame indicating extra-ordinary skill level).

Intermediate: 1 to 3 years of Dominions experience (both SP and MP).

Noob: 1 year or less of Dominions experience (both SP and MP).

The above can be further broken down (if necessary) into:

Green Noob: 6 months or less of experience (1 month or less = Fresh and Green ),
Lower Level Intermediate: 1 - 2 years experience,
Upper level Intermediate: 2-3 years,
and Seasoned Veteran: 4 or more years of experience.

This usually can be determined in most cases by looking at a players Shrapnel forum join date (Space Empires and other games of course will throw this off).

Also experience alone does not take into account skill level but generally with experience your skill is assumed to improve. This also doesn't account for number of games played. But it's a reasonable guide I think.

[Squirrelloid]

I don't know, game bugs that have a severe impact should warrant rollbacks (and i would have supported another team in rolling back for this latest reason on that principle), especially if the game bug is relatively unknown (by a reasonable reader of the forums), extremely poorly understood, or impossible to control.

That said, given the nature and the scope of this game, and given there was apparently an issue in Preponderance with the message limit (according to Namad, people had to negotiate the value of a message in addition to the value of the goods being actually exchanged, which is crazy), I'm really surprised some vet didn't mention this bug before the game even got going, knowing that it would likely be an issue in a team game.

I would be curious to know how many teams' vets:
a: knew about the bug beforehand (chris didn't, Dr.P apparently had some inkling)
b: actually told their teammates about it beforehand

This particular bug is the kind of thing it would be really useful to point out in the OP of future games (of this style), because it will come up in a team game.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

A note to self and others, game 2 and 3 will state clearly on the opening post, NO ROLLBACKS unless a server issue or other event occurs that the admin and host have control over.

Good. Rollbacks for purposes other than fixing game killing bugs are generally a very bad idea. I only wish that had been the case for this game as well, as I am probably not playing anymore mp games for a long time and will definitely not be in any of the sequels.

@squirrel: When I found out how much you guys actually lost I was... disappointed. 50 gems? And what, 6-800 gold? Losing one turn's forging and some gold is, in this game, annoying, but not really a big deal unless you're absolutely fighting for your life. I don't think this game is hanging on such a fine thread, and indeed I don't think very many do period. What you guys lost was basically a drop in the bucket. The only scenario I could see your team's loss of said goods as being really important is in a duel scenario between two evenly or very closely matched players. And even then, I doubt it would have much impact on the overall outcome of the game.

I really don't understand why you guys made such a big deal out of it. As far as I can tell, in most dominions mp games unless a bug or weirdness hits more than just one player you NEVER see a rollback. This being the sole exception in my memory (which is not to be relied upon btw).



Dr. P knew about the bug, but didn't mention it. I was not aware of it myself and doubt anyone else on my team had any foreknowledge of the message limitation.

[Gandalf Parker]

Knowing and mentioning is always rough. Experts tend to settle into things "we all know" and not mention them. But THIS one would have be particularly hard. I learned of it years ago in my solo games but it doesnt come up much when all the other players are AIs.. And there arent really that many team games played so I dont think its the kindof thing that sticks to vets minds. I dont think it comes up much in blitzes.

"Ive got a mind like a computer. I will remember anything, as soon as you ask me."

[rdonj]

Yeah, even though many of us played the noobs vs vets series we never encountered that issue. We never had anyone sending out so much stuff in a turn. Maybe the vets did, but they never said anything about it.

[DrPraetorious]

Well, we didn't run into it because we knew about the bug ?

I recall there was a discussion of the 20-send limit for the forge *****, but it didn't have a strong impact in the Noobs vs. Vets game in which I played *because* we got completely clobbered.

[Septimius Severus]

Speaking of Noobs vs Vets, some things did run a bit smoother, and you'd think that message limit, if it was going to have been tested, would have been tested with 12 people on a team. It might have been, if certain strategies had been implemented.

There were a lot of things in this game we were not expecting/did not know about. Some may criticize and say "Well you should have known". They said this of Gandalf, that he should have known that people would upload all sorts of weird stuff to the server. They said this of myself, that I should have known that AIs cannot be customized and played via Llamaserver. They said it of ACGHHS, that they should have known about this 20 message limit. There are/were just a lot of unique and challenging circumstances in this first game.

Still, we've overcome these challenges and we must roll with the punches. We're human after all, sometimes we get caught up in micromanagement and details, sometimes we are blinded by our own biases, sometimes the desire to win at all costs blinds us, but we regain our vision and right ourselves in the end.

If we are biased in one way or another we seek the opinion of the majority to neutralize it. If we get caught up in details we take a moment to see the big picture. And if our zeal to win overtakes us, we are reminded of what we are really here for. Play enough team games and you will learn to how to work with all kinds of players. You will learn the importance of compromise and teamwork, and most importantly, you shall learn to take it in stride and just have a good time.

I say, put whatever frustration or anger you may have to good and constructive use. Take it out on your enemies in the game. Make them pay! Let loose those dogs! It is time for blood to flow! Where is it? Where is the blood?