MP: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI. Game Over. Team ACGHHS wins!

[DrPraetorious]

Gandalf, can we be *absolutely certain* that the game won't host in 2 hrs?

I propose that we do a mid-era version of this game, where everyone gets the MA version of their current team! So my team would be Jotunheim, Gath, Caelum and Ulm. This would be completely fair and none of you would have any cause to complain.

Okay, the best way to resolve this is a blind-bid system in fixed order.

You fill out a list with your maximum bid on each nation (out of 100 boku.) Then, the nations are bid on:
Ashdod, Ermor, Jotunheim, Vanheim, Pythium, Pangaea, Eriu, Caelum, Abysia, Shinuyama, Ulm*, C'tis*, Bandar Log, T'ien Ch'i, Marignon, Arcoscephale, Machaka and finally Man

* these nations are promoted because of their added utility to a team.

Yes, the order is open to discussion, but is in large part based on my assessment of their team utility. For example, Shinuyama has a real killer app (evokers + darkness) that they're almost guaranteed to get if they've got a team backing them up.

If you end up winning more than 4 nations (which is entirely possible!), then you get to choose from among the 4 you won. No trading between teams!

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

Gandalf, can we be *absolutely certain* that the game won't host in 2 hrs?

I propose that we do a mid-era version of this game, where everyone gets the MA version of their current team! So my team would be Jotunheim, Gath, Caelum and Ulm. This would be completely fair and none of you would have any cause to complain.

Okay, the best way to resolve this is a blind-bid system in fixed order.

You fill out a list with your maximum bid on each nation (out of 100 boku.) Then, the nations are bid on:
Ashdod, Ermor, Jotunheim, Vanheim, Pythium, Pangaea, Eriu, Caelum, Abysia, Shinuyama, Ulm*, C'tis*, Bandar Log, T'ien Ch'i, Marignon, Arcoscephale, Machaka and finally Man

* these nations are promoted because of their added utility to a team.

Yes, the order is open to discussion, but is in large part based on my assessment of their team utility. For example, Shinuyama has a real killer app (evokers + darkness) that they're almost guaranteed to get if they've got a team backing them up.

If you end up winning more than 4 nations (which is entirely possible!), then you get to choose from among the 4 you won. No trading between teams!

I woulnd't object to this method.. but I like bidding. it helps correct bidding anomalies.

Which is better - someone grabbing ashdod for 20 boku.. or a spirited bidding that leads ashdod to go for 72.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

Gandalf, can we be *absolutely certain* that the game won't host in 2 hrs?

There is nothing I see that should cause it to happen.
These are the only "at" timers that nav has.
154 Sun Jan 24 18:10:00 2010 a nav (force)
155 Sun Jan 24 09:10:00 2010 a nav (reminders)

Or if we get 4 more turn files.

But the only *absolutely certain* would be to turn off the hosting entirely.

[Stagger Lee]

noobish question:

Why do heavy infantry in some of my provinces cost 9000g each?

[rdonj]

That's due to the better independents mod. It makes most indies cost ridiculous amounts of money so that the AI doesn't recruit as much useless stuff. There are some things that aren't so expensive, usually archers iirc.

[DrPraetorious]

I think it punishes a few highly useful units, actually.

Heavy Cavalry/Knights are good if the AI has a production bonus (it doesn't spend that much money on them anyway), and barbarians are good for a number of applications in the early game.

But it prevents the AI from buying huge numbers of wolf tribe warriors and medium infantry and suchnot, definitely an improvement there.

[Stagger Lee]

Thanks. I guess I just never noticed before.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by DrPraetorious

I think it punishes a few highly useful units, actually.

Heavy Cavalry/Knights are good if the AI has a production bonus (it doesn't spend that much money on them anyway), and barbarians are good for a number of applications in the early game.

But it prevents the AI from buying huge numbers of wolf tribe warriors and medium infantry and suchnot, definitely an improvement there.

Agreed.

[Squirrelloid]

[quote=Gandalf Parker;727792]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I agree that the balance by large maps was not what the devs did. But large maps ARE part of the game. That are many variations in Dom3 other than 2 to 4 nations on small maps. I have no problem with blitz-duels but Dom3 wasnt made just for that. In order to tweak balance for a specific type of Dom3 game it was expected to use a mod (which is what we do).

I'm not talking just 2 to 4 nation games. 12 people with 180 provinces (15/player) still has serious early game balance issues.

In fact, its even worse than 2-4 player games, because you don't know if your BL is going to end up with Ashdod next door until you run into them. If they're on the other side of the map, you don't have to worry about angry giant sacreds beating down your door. If they're your neighbor, you're probably getting rushed into oblivion, because your early game is crap (especially against Ashdod, against whom elephants are no help). And if they attack you turn ~7, there's no way you're going to rope in any help - your would-be allies are going to sit back and be thankful Ashdod is killing someone who isn't them.

So in a 2-4 player game, where you know Ashdod is going to be proximal, you plan on fighting angry giant sacreds as soon as you start building your pretender. (You still have a damn hard time of it, but you can give yourself every advantage). In the 12 player game you have no idea, and if you plan for killer giants and instead get rushed by jags and eagle warriors from MA Mictlan, you're in trouble because you prepared for the wrong enemy. Or if you don't get rushed you're in trouble because you spent a lot of resources for an eventuality that didn't occur (and thus lost relative advantage).

Ashdod, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about killer rushes - its the biggest kid on the block and it knows it. It can build its pretender while ignoring everyone else in the game, and optimize itself for long term success. There is no good early counter to Ashdod - and *that* is a problem.

That's a 12 player game, a perfectly reasonable common standard around which one might expect nations would be balanced if anything was balanced. Its reasonably close to the norm of play (my guess is 8-14 players covers 50% of PBEM games).

Ultimately, number of players isn't the relevant number once you get above ~5, its provinces/player and total provinces that are the relevant numbers. Provinces/player determines what early game is going to look like. Total provinces determines what late game is going to look like.

At any sane number of provinces per player (10 <= x <= 20) the game is horribly imbalanced in the early game in favor of a few nations. As total provinces exceeds ~150, endgame becomes painful and approaches unplayability as that number gets large. (Its even worse with gem gens, because then everyone ends up with hundreds of pearl income per turn from clams that leads to stupidity like armageddon spamming. There's a reason why making gem gens unique is considered the single best change CBM has made recently.)

I mean, I could argue plenty of specific balance problems, many of which are resolved by CBM and some of which are not, but it would take an epic amount of text to have a point by point discussion. Multiple full-length posts could be written (by one person) just to cover pretender chassis balance, for example. I'm painting with broad strokes because the problems are so frequent that it would take extraordinary effort to do anything but be superficial.

[chrispedersen]

I'd make it even simpler.

Its almost impossible to have a game scale well for 2 player games as well as 20 player games. On top of that scale between easy research to very difficult research. 0 strength indies - 9 strength indies etc.

Nor do I think anyone should try. Balancing is roughly the job of the participants.. saying in effect.. sure you can have ashdod.

We're going to take pythium, jot, and mictlan.... (or whatever)