OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[Skirmisher]

Each star burning in the infinite realm of space is one of god's brain cells.

Space is infinte. That in itself is mindblowing.
Humans only have 5 senses and thus cannot know much of what exsists.
For anybody to say that humans here on earth are the only form of life in the universe have there heads ...(well you get the picture).

Also when we die that's not the end, nature gives us a new body. No we dont remeber that. It would be to confusing for us anyways. The soul is eternal,why should it be limited to one lousy lifetime?

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

I wish that reason and logic will prevail in this discussion.

Good. So let's start!

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Lets start out granting that there are dimensions that are outside of normal perception. That being said lets continue, I posit that "god" is outside of the time stream. My perception of this is that "god" or the creator of all is holding the strands of the universe like a "cats cradle". I beleve that the folks with him are also outside of our here and now. There's some passages that indicate that this is the case, but I don't want to clutter this up with a bunch of bible qoutes.

Ok. In the sake of the same reason and logic you called, I would ask you to prove all of those "beliefs" and "perceptions", as you called them yourself.
Of course you can believe everything you want and for me it's great, but where is the evidence of all this? How do you percieve this "god" or creator which stands somewhere in those dimensions out of the time and space, and why others don't?
Mind I'm not negating it could be true, but without evidence it is pretty much like believing in leprechauns and unicorns to me - things I wouldn't base my life on
And as you seem a reasonable and nice guy, I would ask you why do you believe all this and possibly (as your previous posts seem to suggest) why do you base your life on those beliefs.

Of course again read no attack in my points, I'm just asking - I think I should just stop saying this, it should be clear to everyone who has read 1% of this 3ad that I don't want to hurt or attack anyone, but it is true even that religious susceptibility is very hot these days

Best wishes, waiting for reply

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

Each star burning in the infinite realm of space is one of god's brain cells.

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

Also when we die that's not the end, nature gives us a new body. No we dont remeber that. It would be to confusing for us anyways. The soul is eternal,why should it be limited to one lousy lifetime?

Those are nice beliefs, but nothing in our perceptions makes me believe it is more true than the FSM or Zeus

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

Space is infinte. That in itself is mindblowing.
Humans only have 5 senses and thus cannot know much of what exsists.
For anybody to say that humans here on earth are the only form of life in the universe have there heads ...(well you get the picture).

With all that I pretty much agree - dunno if there are other life forms, but it's unlikely that we are alone Remember we have science to expand our senses. But what can thing out of our senses (which actually reducing to the traditional 5 is very reductive ) be if not creations of our easily suggested minds?

Best wishes

[Bwaha]

I agree that there's probably other life out there. One of my Buddy's and I discussing the possible dangers of the Cern collider, and he posited that when some race turns one on it creates a black hole and poof, and that maybe the source of the mysterious gamma bursts is some foolish race that started it on the surface of their planet. I posited that it will open a gate to a place that we really don't want opened. I think we should have a massive collider but lets build it in space, headed away from us on a exit vector just in case...

One of the reasons I believe in et's is Jesus said, "I will make you priests and kings." To be a king you have to have subjects, ditto for priests. I believe that this planet is a prison world designed to be the place of destruction of the fallen angels and the devil. Also to raise a people that over-came the miasma of evil that permeates our troubled world. I think that they (the aliens) are free from the things that trouble us here, and so are innocent. When Moses was leading the Israelis thru the desert the people kept coming to him for judgments (so in so is ripping me off, ect...) His father in law said to Moses, "appoint judges to take over judicial matters." I think that likewise God has created us to fill a similar role. Yes I'm sorry to say that my future may be as a bureaucrat. Brr, frightening that thought. Argh my internet is fading, be back later.

[Bwaha]

Okay, I had to move to a better connection. Tifone you asked me why I have these beliefs. Please let me tell you some of my history. I grew up with some problems that left me quite bitter. In response I grew to hate god. How dare he do this to me... So as a teenager I joined a coven. I considered this to be cool, we had a place to smoke dope and were served beer in a "safe" environment. But as I saw the terrible things that they did I didn't want to participate in them. In a dream a demon grabbed me and I cried out to god. I used his grace to get out of the clutches of the devil. Then I had a problem, they wanted me dead. So I joined the air force to get out of town. I took the path that got me out as quickly as possible. No mos specified. After taking the aptitude tests they decided to make me a crew chief for a b-52g, in sac no less. So here I was sitting next to a bunch of nukes all the time. I wanted to distract myself from what I was doing. So I read scifi when I was waiting to fire the missiles. One of the things that they pounded into us was global war was gonna happen. It was simply a matter of time. When they did a ori test we didn't know if it was a test or the real thing. To us each test was the real thing. We had orders to fire if we didn't get the recall signal. Brrr, I tell yah it was scary. So it was noticed I was reading and they didn't want me to be distracted. So came the command "don't read scifi on the flight line." So I got a bible and started reading it. Much to my horror I found a lot of similarity's to global thermo-nuclear war and the writings I was reading. And I turned into a pacifist. After being threatened with military prison if I didn't change my mind. I clung to my convictions and they let me go. Honorable discharge BTW. So I went on about my life and got hooked up with a group known as the order of Saint Luke. These people go the hospitals and comfort the dying. In one of times I was there my mentor took me to the chapel and told me to close my eyes. Then she prayed that I would have a vision. I did. I can't divulge exactly what I saw, but lets just say it was wonderful. I've looked at Jesus in his full glory, and heard, well done my faithful servant, enter into paradise... So I can't say I believe, because I know. Sorry about the length of my rant but you asked. I've experienced many other things as well.

[Bwaha]

Sorry If you are offended by my last post, also sorry about the syntax. It was rather painful revisiting that time in my life and I knew that if I stopped I wouldn't be able to continue. So lets move the subject off of me and return to cosmology.

I find that the references to other dimensions to be fascinating, Please look at II Corinthians chapter four. BTW the god of this word is satan. The verse that I'm referring to is #18. The bible is full of allusions like this. I'll stop for a response at this time.

[Skirmisher]

Originally Posted by Tifone

Those are nice beliefs, but nothing in our perceptions makes me believe it is more true than the FSM or Zeus

Humans were given free will, as a result we can believe whatever we like. True or not.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

Humans were given free will, as a result we can believe whatever we like. True or not.

Given, developed, possess..... Semantics aside, your conclusion is rock solid, even if the premise is a matter of conjecture.

<3

[Aapeli]

Free will is relative. We have it, in theory, but, in theory, we dont. Extreme relativism is my favourite philosophy. I mean, in theory anything goes. But anywho I dont like to think we dont have a free will, cause that would just be too simple and too boring.

[Imp]

Firstly I am not a beliver as such though have read decent sections of 3 religious tomes.
While not believing them I do think they are literary masterpieces they all say the same thing & the message is simple.
They are codes of conduct, a way of life what you should aspire to be written people living in hard times where doing the right thing was not as easy as now. What you think of as hardships are things that encroach on your spare time, perhaps paying a bill, big frigin deal.
Somebody qouted

Sorry for the rant, we are just on the topic, again I'm not really saying ppl should stop believing, believe whatever you want if it makes you feel good and in peace with the others

As I said not a beliver but this is exactly the wrong use for religion, using it to prop you up & make you feel good means neither are you its something you should be striving for. In fact a true follower makes his life harder as persicuted lives in poverty etc because they make sacrifices things to help others. Trying to live by the "code" of your religios book is what makes you faithful & you cant be selective & ignore the hardest bits they are probably the most important.

As I said have read big chunks of 3 plus bits of others but lets take the Christian bible & employ some logic for a moment on if it should be taken literaly or as a guide.
Is it the word of God if so it got lost, how.

Firstly take any story translate it & pass it down over a period of time. That thing we now call spin happens, its impossible for it not to. Just translating someone puts his interpritation on it.
Christianity borrows heavily from earlier religions a simple example & there are very many we celebrate Christs birthday when? On his Birthday no on a previos religions Christ is ignored. Start reading folks lots of these books are the same stories with diffrent actors.

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

The Catholic Church for instance to name but one managed to twist the context of the bible (easily done with anything) & decide going to war in the name of God was good.
What sorry is that really the message
Is the church run as it should be trying to help people keep on the path or & call me Mr Cynical here is it run as a business. Are they worried about falling attendance because more people will fail when the time comes or do they want more bums on pews because donations have dropped?
How rich are they, Vatican State thats a country & despite the church being rich do they help out when there are disasters or keep the coffers full & send a few people.
Over emphasising here but does the Catholic church try & do as it preaches or does it tend to be selective in its followings. They seem to have broken the mold of living in hardship giving up things to help others, yes they give up a few but its selective & not exactly a harsh life.
With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

On a truly sad note the reason we need these books is obvious & the people that wrote them never would have if they had realised that they would be twisted to be what?
A shout for war.
Yes the human race is lost it deserves its fate.