OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS

[Tifone]

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge

[HoneyBadger]

Exactly. One of the big points of science fiction is that it can afford to be ambiguous about what's right and what's wrong, and make that ambiguity a central focus of theme and plot.

Who knows what's going to be right or wrong in the future?

On balance, fantasy can, and often does, offer us the comfort of taking away the guesswork.

The orks-by any other name-are bad, the elves-by any other name-are good. That's all we need to know. Just point your magic wand and shoot, and the gods will know their own. There lacks even the moral quandry of slaughtering the bad guys. The universe *itself* can, and often is, a moral place, in fantasy writing.

Myth, on the other hand, is seriously whacked in the head. What's good and what's bad in myth can be just as ambiguous as it is in science fiction, except that we're applying those questions of right and wrong to things that have already happened, that are happening, people that have already lived and died, and cultures that we may still find ourselves living in. Suddenly, there's an "oh #$%*, what did we do?" factor there, a banning from the Garden of Eden, some fire stolen from Olympus, or a few Christians roasting over an open fire.

Suddenly, it's not the worry of a hell we may someday find ourselves heading towards, but a hell we're already confined in, because-with myth-the very morals of the Universe not only do exist, but can shift like an angry sea, at a moment's notice.

That's the real difference between fantasy and myth-fantasy's like going off to vacation in a welcoming world of black and white, where paradise is at most a promise away. It's all a lie, but it's a beautiful, comfortable lie.

Myth, on the other hand, is where you live. And it's where everyone lives, all the time, even if you're a scientist. We never know for certain everything that's going on, and even if we did, 100%, we couldn't accept it all, completely. There's always a mythological element to the lives we live, and the world around us, and you can never escape that, except through fantasy. Myth may be an illusion, but it's a very real, very concrete illusion, like darkness existing as the absence of light. It may not be fact, but it's real, and it absolutely is Truth.

Fantasy, no matter how real it may seem, is always a lie.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Tifone

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge

That is another (*SIGH* Yet another on a list of many many many) things that Illwinter did amazingly well. How could anyone create a game using Fantasy, Mythology, Religious material and avoid the concept of good vs bad. Even for an old RPGer like me I cannot feel that nations such as Rlyeh, Ermor, Ctis represent evil. Or that Arcos, Pythium, Marignon, Man represent good. Yes those might be the most likely candidates for such but in thinking about it I am amazed that the end result is not that the game is painting one side or the other as good/evil but it boils down to a "the other guy is always the evil one" feel.

[JimMorrison]

Well by using historical references, and cunning implementation, it becomes apparent, there are mostly two types of people in the world - those who believe they are good, and those who try to appear to be good. In either case, they tend to do some degree of bad things, and their success in hiding those things can vary greatly depending on their approach and execution.

There's a great irony to this. In thinking about it further, R'lyeh seems the most actually "evil" to me, in their approach. Which is funny, because Atlantis and Oceania seem to be their innocent victims for the most part - their EA incarnations are pretty unfettered by excessive weirdness, and they seem to take on less freaky traits in later ages, than other nations tend to.

But that's neither here nor there. Dom3 is just so far from bland or stereotypical. It really makes it look like Elemental will be the ANTI-Dom3. That is, they will focus most on what Dom3 skimps on the most - the UI, graphics, and AI. This will come at the expense of inspired and inspirational content. Will there be fun and interesting mechanics to play with? I'm sure there will be..... but what will you be able to do with those mechanics? Sadly, it seems the answer will likely end up to be "less than you can with the simpler mechanics of Dom3".

I want to imagine Elemental will be awesome (equally awesome to Dom3, on the plane of 'too awesome to compare to eachother'), just because I'm a huge fan of Brad Wardell himself, and his approach/philosophy to game design, and his business model. I actually want him and his endeavors to succeed, even more than I want Elemental to be the next big thing, because the promary reason I want Elemental to be good, is to validate Brad.

[lch]

Originally Posted by Tifone

... in fact the good race vs evil race thing, even if divided in some factions each, makes my "OMGsostereotype" alarm ring and ring and ring... yet I repeat too soon to judge

Weren't you the one who started the "which nations do you think most represent good/evil" thread? Which I didn't like too much...

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by lch

Weren't you the one who started the "which nations do you think most represent good/evil" thread? Which I didn't like too much...

I think that was meant as more of a philosophical thing, since there isn't a clear black and white distinction in Dominions, that it's interesting to see how people digest the shades of grey.

[HoneyBadger]

Aboleths are by far the most amoral of all the Nations in the game. I don't care what anybody else has to say about it, it's a fact Above and beyond R'lyeh, Ermor, Mictlan, etc, Aboleths are a bunch of seriously cold bastiches.

Infact, morally speaking, in terms of sacrifice for the common good, and the way those sacrifices were historically treated (as sacred royalty, for a whole year), Mictlan might actually have the moral high ground, in the game, if we can assume that the same historical practices were going on, behind the scenes.

Ofcourse, they aren't *our* set of beliefs and morals.

And I don't find Marignon particularly good. Too oppressive, and too fanatical about maintaining that status-quo, to the detriment of their own people. Torturing and killing their own people over religious issues, and creating an environment of terror, isn't moral, no matter what they might represent.

Pythium, although you can speculate that they're religiously tolerant, isn't a lot better, since you'll note that they pit gladiators against hydras in their arenas, for mass entertainment purposes.

I've never thought of C'tis as having a particular moral status, but if they do, I'd guess it would lean towards good, since ancient Egyptians did everything they could to maintain and expand their society, to the benefit of their citizens. There was, ofcourse, a great division between the Haves and the Have Nots, but the people most empowered, the Pharaohs, were expected to dedicate their entire afterlife-the central theme of Egyptian culture-to defending the world against demons and destruction. They did ofcourse have slaves, but those slaves could themselves rise to high position, based on their abilities.

I can't think of a deciding factor for Arco, but it would probably depend on how well they treat their elephants--their greatest war asset. Considering ancient Greek society, I'd say Neutral. They had a lot of good things going on, and a lot of bad things. They definitely *did* have slaves, and the Spartans atleast treated them horrendously.

If we consider Late Age Ermor, you won't find a more democratic society in Dominions. Everyone becomes a lot more equal, once their dead. No racism, no torture or slaughter of their own kind, no religious intolerance, and they don't even blood-hunt, and they want to spread the benefits of their society to everyone--and their *are* benefits to being undead-to their neighbors.

Late Era R'lyeh is pretty evil, but they're evil because they're insane. It's not cold calculation, it's misguided fanaticism, perhaps brought on by desperation, considering that the Illithids *are* lost aliens trapped on the surface of the Dominions world. They're not E.T., but they're not Predators, either.

[Tichy]

Are LA R'lyeh insane, or are they making everyone else insane?
And elves are just as often represented as reclusive, xenophobic and unutterably arrogant as "good."

[HoneyBadger]

Elves=good, or atleast right-headed, but uppity, snotty, and arrogant, which perhaps has application to changing opinions about the Nobility in early 20th century Britain.

And certainly Illithids can *go* insane. If they used to live in the Void, and don't have a way to go back, then driving everyone else insane is just a form of terraforming.

[JimMorrison]

I really have to say, I'm very happy to have witnessed the animated "The Hobbit" when I was still in my formative years. Especially the way that they portrayed the elves as total bastards, it was great.

And I was including the Aboleths in my R'lyeh estimation. Personally I don't see a huge difference between the Aboleths and MA Starspawns - they're all brain sucking fishes. Late is a different beast all together, but that's just because we let some insane aliens rip a hole in the fabric of reality for fun and profit.


I can't even begin to imagine that the "factions" in Elemental will have half the actual personality of a Dominions nation. Maybe a third, I could conceive them getting that much life into them. I still think it could be quite good, just not directly comparable because it will be trying to excel in different areas than Dominions does.