SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Asmala]

If PPB is weakened, then normal shields are usefull also in the later part of game. Would it confuse the AI if normal and phased shields has different family numbers?

Does anybody find out a way to make other scanners than hyper optics usefull without big modifications? Perhaps those with higher research cost would be cheaper/smaller?

And finally I'd like to modify the order of components in components.txt. It won't affect the AI for sure I know there are the comp type Groups but I still like all armors one after another (normal, scattering, stealth, emissive, perhaps even racial armories). Also I'd like the solar sail after engines. I think there are more improvements but I have to check them out.

[Fyron]

How about making PPBs 75% as effective as APB 4-8 (IE: 75% as much damage)? This sticks with 5 levels, and makes them start at about the same point as if the player had reasearched APBs instead of Physics 2. Stopping with APB level 8 means they won't be anywhere near as powerful as late-game APBs.

Hmm, I'm a newbie so I acknowledge that my opinions don't carry too much weight, but here they are anyway

Your opinion is as valid and useful as everyone else's.

I agree that organizing the comps better is a good idea. It looks like everything was just thrown on the end of the list when Aaron thought of them. Check Adamant Mod for a reorganizing possibility.

[ July 24, 2003, 21:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

A -5 damage to the APB would result in the MB being slightly better at ranges 4-6.

A moderate increase in PPB cost
The smoothing out of the PPB damage improvements at levels 2&3 as suggested before.
A 5% to 10% negative to the to-hit would be enough to make it a fair choice IMO.



What would be a good change for the Hellbore?
Changing Graviton Hellbore to skip all shields, perhaps?

[ July 24, 2003, 21:35: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

We should add 3 more levels of Armor components, with increasing HPs. Armor should always be a viable alternative to shields, with each having their own uses.

In fact, it would IMO be a good idea to make Armor come in 1 kT chunks, and have more HPs than Shield Generators make. This allows the Armor ships to win the first battle, but have lots less defense left for the next ones. The shield ships have fewer HPs to start with, but get their defenses for every battle. Sort of like in P&N mod.

Of course, that system is very different from stock SE4, so we may not want it for a balance mod. But, having 3 more levels of the Armor comps (no new tech areas) would be a great idea.

[Fyron]

What would be a good change for the Hellbore?
Changing Graviton Hellbore to skip all shields, perhaps?

Probably doubling its damage and making it skip all shields would be good. It does a lot less damage than MBs, PPBs, APBs, etc. at short ranges, and almost nothing at long ones. Make it killer at short range, but get really weak at long ranges (same rate of damage attenuation it has now works nicely for this). Ofc, the Ripper Beam should do even more damage than the GHB (a lot more, maybe 50% more), as it has very short range. This creates vastly different combat options for these weapons (esp. with the different ROF).

[ July 24, 2003, 21:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Fyron]

I think we should make the first 2-3 levels of phased shields be a little better. All that it does is screw the AIs, who will use them as soon as they get Shields 6, thus creating ships with far fewer HPs (even less than if they used Armor), as well as just making you wait longer with some useless intermediate techs.

[Fyron]

Massive Planetary Shield Generators should have cost divided by 10 and shields generated multiplied by 10. They are extremeley useless as they are now because it takes a really long time to build them, and they provide not even enough shielding to delay a couple of LCs for very long.

RE: Mineral Scanners and such

I suggest we make the specific resource ones go 15/30/45, while the Robotoids remain 10/20/30. It makes sense that if you are using 3x as much space, you should get something out of it.

I suggest all Research Centers be made to generate 50 intel points so that you can get some counter intel possibility in the early game without having an intel-making ally. It makes no sense that a world of ~4 billion people is completely open to sabotage with absolutely ZERO chance of doing anything to reduce the effects or anything like that. This greatly increases balance and makes it so that he who gets Applied Intel first does not get on as much of an overwhelming lead. Still has a big lead, but is not omnipotent on the Intel front.

[ July 24, 2003, 21:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

I like the idea of different weapons being superior to others at different times in the game.
...
The remaining direct fire weapons would be your "niche" weapons, good for ceratin situations, but not the basis of your military, and your seekers which are different classes alltogether.

That's certainly a valid approach. But even if that was the direction this mod goes, I would still argue that PPBs (like Null-Space) should be a niche weapon rather than a Main Line weapon. The progression could be DUC --> Meson BLaster --> APB. Each representing an improvement on the latter, reflected both in cost of research and resources.

That said, however, I would much prefer there to be choices at each stage of the game rather than a simple formula to follow.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
How about making PPBs 75% as effective as APB 4-8 (IE: 75% as much damage)? This sticks with 5 levels, and makes them start at about the same point as if the player had reasearched APBs instead of Physics 2. Stopping with APB level 8 means they won't be anywhere near as powerful as late-game APBs.

I hate this idea.

It TOTALLY nerfs the PPB. It turns it into a niche weapon that is only usefull if you are facing an enemy with non-phased shields. What you end up with in comparison to the APB is a weapon that takes much more research to get intially, costs twice as much and is less effective from the start, never gets any closer in damage and falls way behind in damage and range by the end because the APB branch is so much longer.

The only time the PPB would be advantageous would be agaisnt normal shields, and the heavy research costs means that the APB player can keep up in shield tech, getting phased shields about the time the PPB gets PPB, and the APB player will be ahead in weapons tech.

The only redeeming quality of this idea is that it so neuters the PPB that people will stop using it. Over time this will translate into more players using shields and stopping with the high end normal shields. The sneaky player inside me sees this as an opportunity to pull a switch on someone at a crucial moment in a game and catch their heavily normally shielded fleet with their pants down. But this would depend so much on timing and luck that it could almost be classified as a desperation move. The player that depends on this as a strategy is going to lose a lot more then they win.

Geoschmo

[Fyron]

Geo, that is EXACTLY how PPBs worked in SE3, and they worked beautifully there IMO. They should not be a mainline weapon, they should be a support type weapon, only useful in some situations. As it is now, they are so powerful that they become main line weapons, with really no decisions to make at all. Increasing choices to be made is ALWAYS a good idea (except when you increase from 30 to 40 choices or something ludicrous, ofc ).