New Mod Nations Game: Mods over Europe (finished)

[DrPraetorious]

I finally killed Avernum's raiders.

So, the dwarves have announced their intention to conquer the entire ocean. I'm an ocean player, and once my amphibious army turns around and heads west, I anticipate no problems dealing with a bunch of tritons and other scum (dwarves in bathoscopes? Ooh, I'm scared).

However, as a condition of providing this service I *demand* a 3 turn NAP from Sylvania - and I am not giving him Egypt.

If he refuses my reasonable offer, I will let the dwarves have the oceans, and fling my entire army against Sylvania, ignoring all other concerns. You'll all know who to blame when the dwarves (first in research, provinces and gem income, natch) conquer the world.

I have nothing against crass opportunism but I'm sick of people who lack the good sense to resort to diplomacy when the situation calls for it.

[Sombre]

I don't see how demanding things of a militarily stronger opponent is a reasonable offer. It's the same 'diplomacy' you tried with me when you spotted me coming from the west - offering me one or two provinces I essentially already owned and demanding I go no further east when you had nothing to back it up. If it's going to be so easy beating me in the ocean, then I don't see why you tried that in the first place.

As for knowing who to blame if I do well, I'd guess that would be you, since you're making unreasonable demands of those around you and threatening to try and throw the game.

[Jazzepi]

DrPraetorious said:
I finally killed Avernum's raiders.

So, the dwarves have announced their intention to conquer the entire ocean. I'm an ocean player, and once my amphibious army turns around and heads west, I anticipate no problems dealing with a bunch of tritons and other scum (dwarves in bathoscopes? Ooh, I'm scared).

However, as a condition of providing this service I *demand* a 3 turn NAP from Sylvania - and I am not giving him Egypt.

If he refuses my reasonable offer, I will let the dwarves have the oceans, and fling my entire army against Sylvania, ignoring all other concerns. You'll all know who to blame when the dwarves (first in research, provinces and gem income, natch) conquer the world.

I have nothing against crass opportunism but I'm sick of people who lack the good sense to resort to diplomacy when the situation calls for it.

DrPraetorious said:
Well, I don't think you handled the diplomacy deftly.

- If, when someone tries to negotiate with you, you threaten to throw the game to the other player, people will tend simply not to negotiate with you at all.

[DrPraetorious]

I do not object to Sombre refusing my offer of peace at-existing-borders. Sombre clearly prefers war - that's understandable, especially as he seems to think I'm defenseless.

Sombre offered that he would conquer the entire ocean and I could suck on it. I fail to see how Sombre could object if I accept his generous offer. As I can't defend my land borders and stop him at the same time, I'll not have much choice.

I already saved the lot of you from Avernum at considerable expense. I'm not going to do that again unless I get, if not support, at the least a pledge of non-interference.

Anyway, if the other players don't want Sombre to run away with the game, they'd be wise to unite against him now while it's feasible, or at least guarantee peace with those who are fighting him. If I fought Sombre while trading provinces to Sylvania in exchange for peace, *that* would be throwing the game.

I have no interest in the Atlantic. I'm perfectly happy to put up a fort in the straits of gibraltar and then stop, meaning I'll be no larger than the bulk of the other players. Sombre clearly intends to dominate the entire ocean, at which rate he'll be at least twice the size of any other player.

I should clarify: there is a difference between threatening to throw the game (which I am not doing), and in refusing to capitulate to demands.

[Sombre]

You didn't save anyone from Avernum, you invaded them seeking gains along with two other nations. They hardly stood much of a chance. Claiming you did it for anyone other than yourself would be like me claiming I defeated Ulm to end their threat to neighbouring nations. The fact that they chose to direct their last bit of strength against you I would guess stems from their estimation that you were the most powerful enemy attacking them.

This is the same situation - you're trying to threaten and coerce people into doing what you want while pretending it's their only option. You don't see Kharam Dzu doing that - we've offered fair diplomatic relations to everyone we've met, including you. If you show some power in the sea that makes us think you can back up your earlier offer of 'come no further' then we'll return to the negotiating table. It's rather insulting for you to try and dictate terms to us when as far as we're aware, we hold all the cards. We aren't interested in a long draining war, just in some profit and plunder. I'd also like to point out that we can't even build forts underwater and have very limited aquatic forces, so unlike Haida we have no chance of creating a sea territory that is essentially impossible to ever invade.

We also aren't near 'critical mass' in my estimation, because we still have multiple neighbours who are getting stronger, not weaker, and are poised to take huge swathes of valuable landmass that we can't even get to.

[Xox]

Pirate lies!!

***********************************
Sombre said:
You don't see Kharam Dzu doing that - we've offered fair diplomatic relations to everyone we've met, including you.
****************************************

You did not offer fair diplomatic relations to (me) Ulm. You saw their weakness in the all knowing graphs and refused to negotiate.

[Sombre]

"You lied!"

"Uh, pirate?"


You basically told us to stay out of scandinavia because it belonged to you. As with Haida, you appeared to lack the power to go making a claim like that, so we found it rather insulting. We didn't issue a written response (IIRC) because our actions were pretty clear, blocking your route into Scandinavia before attacking you. There was also the matter of revenge for our cousins in Neo Xenkinima.*

* - In that game Ulm Reborn crushed the dwarves completely in an even quicker and more brutal way than I did to you. I know it's nothing to do with you as a player, but I thought it made an interesting pretext for an attack. You put up a great fight and cost me a lot of time and resources by the way - I hope there's no bad feeling :]

[Xox]

Wow, you should be a politician Sombre, thats some mighty fine spin control there.

You attacked me after I gave into your demands for Scandinavia.

I totally gave into your claims on scandinavia, did not go in myslef, saw you take it and then use it to attack me anyways.

Not to say you broke a treaty or anything, You would not give me a treaty. This is all about your false statement

again, for the record....

***********************************
Sombre said:
You don't see Kharam Dzu doing that - we've offered fair diplomatic relations to everyone we've met, including you.
****************************************

I am just pointing out that this above statement of yours is just not true. "Pirate lies" as I said before

YOu have been caught, 'fess up


********************

Not taking it personal, all in good fun, it seems to have done you well. Frankly I was surprised everyine let you gain that much unoppossed. I even still think Kharam Dzu needs a boost. You did well because other nations were occuppied or asleep, great starting position, being able to see the weakness of another nation in the graphs, and good play on your part.

I am not sure what i could have done different in my situation. I cuold have groveled more I suppose, but I am pretty sure that would just worsen the "pirate pounce on the weak" syndrome that I was already seeing.

[Sombre]

Clearly the saying "Dead men tell no tales" doesn't work as well as we'd hoped, haharr. But dead ye are and bitter too, Ulmish spirits. Begone! We've no time for ye.

---------------------------------

People could have attacked me during my conquest of ulm, but they wouldn't have done so well for themselves as they have. Avernum was a threat, Sylvania was expanding into Spain - everyone had plenty to gain by placing their attention elsewhere. True, they gained less than me, but then they risked less too, attacking indies or gangpiling avernum.

You were just the victim of a powerful early game economy and our sailing ability.

The main thing you could have done, as far as I can see, would be to kick the hell out of my first couple of armies that crossed over. Faced with big casualties for no real gain I'd have given up and gone on to deal with more indies. But you didn't really have the early game strength to do that. In the first few battles I lost more than you, but you lost enough that I knew I'd win given a bit more time.

[lch]

I have removed the nations which were defeated or turned AI from the turn notification script. In case you drop out and don't want to receive the emails any longer, please send me a PM or just reply back to the notification email for that.