Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Maerlande]

I think that's a bit of taste involved. I've been playing them with a nice rainbow bless on the light side with sleeping master lich and some 4's while keeping decent scales. Obviously it includes D4 and B4 and other variations. There are a lot of options which play a bit different.

But, the point was that they compare unfavourably to other LA sacred cavalry. Not an analysis of playing style or build although I agree I brought that into the discussion myself.

Speaking of limiting strategies, assuming that Ulm can't use a bless strat is limiting. It's possible. It may not be effective. I think it works well with 4's and synergizes with the need to diversify magic.

[Illuminated One]

Well, I'm not talking about limited in one nation (of course a nation must be limited or it's simply overpowered, see Hinnom, Sauromatia).
I mean that balancing nations should not be done by just giving them better sacreds imo.

[Squirrelloid]

Having just played LA Ulm recently, i'm not convinced the templars are unplayable. But they probably are overpriced for their stats, at least slightly. Their real problem is their bad MR - i had them dying like flies to smite spam, which for an 80 gold unit is not cool, especially when they're otherwise the only unit Ulm has that can stand against a lot of the LA bless rushes. I'd probably advise an MR boost before a drop in the gold cost.

I do think the rainbow Ulm bless is perfectly playable and fulfills a lot of Ulm's needs.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Have you actually tried to play with him against real people? (everything works against the computer, after all).

I have, and it went great. But I was really lucky in that game.
Allfather's main flaw is that he doesnt cover Vanheim's main weaknesses (which is limited magic).

[chrispedersen]

I think you are missing a huge contributor to their value.

If I am palying a sacred nation: Mictlan, Lanka.. etc. I choose a different target. Period.

Lowering the cost would mean ulm doesn't have to make choices. I've had a lot of experience with MP, and a fair amount of success. I just had my butt handed to me by Fantomen in a straight up fight with ulm as is.

[Maerlande]

I think you are missing a huge contributor to their value.

What would that be Chris? Don't get me wrong. I think the Black Templars have value and I buy them depending on the strategy. I just think they are overpriced. I know you have lot's of MP experience and I'm interested in your analysis.

I doubt I would play a build based on them, but it's possible.

An MR boost would sure help. A suggestion on IRC was made to use them with Legions of Steel which is great except that it's very hard for Ulm to get many LoS casters with only 1/4 of black priests having the capability and only after Conj 3 research. Still, 20 protect +3 is very very nice.

[Squirrelloid]

The problem Ulm has against sacred rushes is they're likely to be accompanied by a smite spamming priest (the prophet, if nothing else).

At which point Ulm has the choice of the Templars, who might actually be able to fight the sacreds but will die horribly to smite spam, and in their rather limited numbers can't really survive that. Or they can choose regular units (none of which they can mass especially fast, but faster than templars), who will have the numbers to withstand some smite losses, but won't survive the sacreds. And it really is a one or the other choice, because even with Pr3 Ulm will always find itself resource limited.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I have, and it went great. But I was really lucky in that game.
Allfather's main flaw is that he doesnt cover Vanheim's main weaknesses (which is limited magic).

I would say thats *a* problem with it, but its main problem is its horribly overcosted, which makes it impossible to really benefit from any of its advantages.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Maerlande

What would that be Chris? Don't get me wrong. I think the Black Templars have value and I buy them depending on the strategy. I just think they are overpriced. I know you have lot's of MP experience and I'm interested in your analysis.

I doubt I would play a build based on them, but it's possible.

An MR boost would sure help. A suggestion on IRC was made to use them with Legions of Steel which is great except that it's very hard for Ulm to get many LoS casters with only 1/4 of black priests having the capability and only after Conj 3 research. Still, 20 protect +3 is very very nice.

Hey Maerlande,

The fact that because they *can* build guardians, sacred nations don't choose ulm as a target.

I disagree completely with squirrel that bless nations tend to field large armies of smiters. In fact, very few nations field large numbers of H3 priests. Abysia comes to mind.

Secondly; Ulm has a 25% production bonus. This means that it is easier to have dump stats, and translates into a bonus on pretender design.

Finally, I *like* the low MR of ulm units. I don't believe accurate stats are tracked since the recent changes to ulm. However I definitely do not view it as one of the weak nations.

Ulm has a national spell that boosts MR. I would rather increase the AoE of that spell than make any fundamental changes to ulm units.

I won the all ulm civil war (admittedly late age), but I think many of the same principles carry through for ulm from beginning to end.

To me, ulms low MR is a guide that ulm needs to transition from national troops to other things. But due to its forge bonus, or national spells (la) ulm has pretty good options in those areas.

[Trumanator]

Ummm, they're talking about the cavalry, not the guardians Chris. LA Ulm is the one in question here.