A new idea for magic scales

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I've never been happy with magic scales only helping research and not helping actual use of magic.

Well, a magic scale does help the use of magic on the battlefield, as it reduces fatigue drastically.

Talent would change that

I have another idea. Why not give mages a penetration bonus when it comes to casting resistable rituals - like Mind Hunt - just like their target's MR is modified by the magic/drain scale of the province he's in?

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +1 +1 0 0 0 -1 -1

A magic scale could even help penetrating magical domes:

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +5% +5% 0% 0% 0% -5% -5%

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Furthermore there is only a small chance of getting it and only when you buy mages (which are expensive to begin with).

Or maybe mages and priests, too... priests are more expensive in Doms II, and do kinda use magic. But getting a random astral on an otherwise healthy priest or mage would be annoying=)

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I actually thought of a similar effect for priests based on dominion strength instead of magic scale (5% chance of bonus priest level per candle above 7), but didn't include it because of the length of my original post.

As for the random astral - that's one reason I limited it to paths the mage already has. The other is to keep standard Pangaea from getting too much versatility - their lack of randoms is a balance factor, forcing them to rely on indies or their pretender to branch out into other magic paths. Since I often take magic with them so that Dryads are better researchers, letting them get Dryads with randoms (even occasionally) might be too good.

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Now that I thought of this idea, I like it better than Saber's and my other ideas about extra gem income or reduced gem costs for rituals, forging, empowerment etc. It gives the talented mages more individuality, and therefore makes magic scales more interesting (as well as more useful) to play.

Maybe so, but why put in one new cool scale effect when you can have lots of cool new scale effects?

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Two reasons: it's easier to implement one thing at a time, and it's easier to balance one thing at a time.

Boring, I know. But practical.

Why don't you give a full -3 to +3 magic scale statistical rundown of what a player would expect? Right now I'm a little confused about drain, since obviously you couldn't have a less than zero chance of getting talented mages.

I briefly entertained the idea of anti-talent in drain dominions, but discarded it as too damaging - strong drain is bad enough already, that's part of the point of your original post.

Drain 3: -3 research, +1 MR
Drain 2: -2 research, +1 MR
Drain 1: -1 research, +0 MR
Neutral: +0 research, +0 MR
Magic 1: +1 research, +0 MR, 5% Talent
Magic 2: +2 research, -1 MR, 10% Talent
Magic 3: +3 research, -1 MR, 15% Talent

P.S. Aside from the astral thing, I think this would be more useful if it gave totally random magic, opening up new fields to a nation with talented, curious mages. Possibly weighted toward, but not exclusive to, existing paths.

I think that would be too good for nations that have limited magical versatility to balance out their other strengths. Especially since it also gives you randoms on cheap mages (Marignon Initiates, Theurg Acolytes, etc.) - with my original proposal they can only get reinforcement in their existing path.

Nations with limited natural mage versatility would still have to rely on their pretender, site-based mages, druids, amazons or amber clan tritons (any other population-based mages?) to branch out. I don't think that's unduly difficult.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I've never been happy with magic scales only helping research and not helping actual use of magic.

Well, a magic scale does help the use of magic on the battlefield, as it reduces fatigue drastically.

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How drastically? If you have any hard data, by all means share it. The manual has far fewer nuts and bolts than I expected (sorry Psitticine, but I want to know all the formulae! ); although it does cover the basic fatigue calculation well (which already puts it a step ahead of a lot of manuals these days), it doesn't say anything about the effect of magic/drain scales on the calculation.

In any case, AFAIK the bonus affects both sides equally, making it less than impressive; and much of the most important casting is ritual, which isn't affected at all. (AFAIK, a few rituals are affected by the MR modifier - if the target is in your dominion.)

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Talent would change that

I have another idea. Why not give mages a penetration bonus when it comes to casting resistable rituals - like Mind Hunt - just like their target's MR is modified by the magic/drain scale of the province he's in?

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +1 +1 0 0 0 -1 -1

A magic scale could even help penetrating magical domes:

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +5% +5% 0% 0% 0% -5% -5%

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I don't think this would help enough. Resistable rituals represent a tiny fraction of all uses of magic, or even of off-battlefield magic. Also, both of your tables show no extra benefit at magic +3, which is exactly the level that is really not worth it under the present system (has the lowest proportional research effect of any 1-point change and is already after you have gotten all MR modifier you can get). In fact it's possible that +3 magic should get you talent 20% (instead of 15%) for exactly this reason.

At least your suggestion is biased toward the owner, though - the battlefield MR modifier lowers the MR of the god's own troops as much as it does the enemy. Gee, I really want to pay points for that.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
a magic scale does help the use of magic on the battlefield, as it reduces fatigue drastically.

How drastically? If you have any hard data, by all means share it.

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If it hasn't changed since Doms 1, it's 10% less (more) fatigue when fighting in a magic (drain) dominion - so under drain+3 spells cause roughly twice the fatigue they cause under magic+3, eg 130 vs 70 for a 100 fat. one.

In any case, AFAIK the bonus affects both sides equally, making it less than impressive

It sure isn't gamebreaking, but you shouldn't underestimate it either. If you're playing a magic nation, the fatigue reduction compounding with the better research rate (and therefore the earlier availability of your mages once you've researched your first battle spells) can give a welcome boost to your early expansion.

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I have another idea. Why not give mages a penetration bonus when it comes to casting resistable rituals - like Mind Hunt - just like their target's MR is modified by the magic/drain scale of the province he's in?

I don't think this would help enough.

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Personally I think magic is close enough to good as it is and doesn't further help. At least that's a bonus you can count on, while your "talent" suggestion might yield little or nothing if you're unlucky.

Also, both of your tables show no extra benefit at magic +3

For god's sake, Chris, these tables were just an example based on the current (magic scale/MR mod) relationship, I can't believe you're ready to dismiss an idea just because these numbers don't please you. Make that +3/+2/+1/0/0/-1/-2 if you prefer.