Pangaeda: New Age - the redheaded stepchild of Dom2?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Blitz:
1) Everyone gets archers, you just have to go look for them

I was refering to this:

Originally posted by Blitz:
Pangaea's biggest strength is probably the recuperation ability of its units. The afflictions that plague other armies simply don't affect Pangaea. No more limping infantries bringing up the rear. No one-eyed archers putting arrows in the backs of your cavalry.

Since that's a post about New Era, whoever reads that would assume it gets national archers with recuperation. Unfortunately this isn't the case.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Ahem, I've found that New Era Pangaea is an excellent theme.

I find it a bit weak when compared to the default though. And it seriously lacks diversity in its units, for me New Era is a theme with only 3 units and 3 leaders to pick from. Hmmm, and after a while the only unit I keep recruiting is the Cataphract. Even Ulm offers more variety.

BTW, isn't it odd that the new Pan loses an earth magic level as well as the maenad magnet effect? Shouldn't it be the other way around? New Era uses steel almost as much as Ulm, which means smiths, which means construction, which means earth magic. I think moving that 2nd earth from the basic Pan to his New Era cousin would help balancing the themes.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I think moving that 2nd earth from the basic Pan to his New Era cousin would help balancing the themes.

That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I think moving that 2nd earth from the basic Pan to his New Era cousin would help balancing the themes.

That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about.

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Ooooh I tend to zero in on comments that make Pangaea sound weak if they lose a "face to face" army thing. To me, the major advantage of Pangea:default is using its sneak-army abilities.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I think moving that 2nd earth from the basic Pan to his New Era cousin would help balancing the themes.

That would make basic Pangaea almost worthless to play, as the only thing a single point in earth gets them is access to strength of gaia and kitharionic lions. That's not really anything to write home about.

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Except you're wrong: base Panii get 2 earth levels. Moving one of them to NE Panii won't prevent them to use Strength of Gaia or Summon Kitties at all. Since NE Panii cost the same price, and don't even attract Maenads I think it would only be fair.

I don't particularly think that it would be more fair to have the New Era Panii more magically powerful than the Base Panii. Attracting Maeneds is all fine and good, but with the 2E Pan he's worth his heafty pricetag. To downgrade the base Panii and upgrade the New Era doesn't neccesarily fix the problem, but changes it to another.

I'm fairly certain the biggest gripes of Base Pan are the Satyrs and Minos. (Though of course switching the Holy levels of the Hierophant and Dryads was a great change in Arrlen's Mod) Not the Panii being overpowered.

I would like to see the New Era Panii have 2 Earth, even with the sacrifice of a Nature (Finishing up with 2E2N) rather than putting *ANY* Pan at 1E3N. Just for the sake of being able to use Earthpower and forge Boots.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Except you're wrong: base Panii get 2 earth levels. Moving one of them to NE Panii won't prevent them to use Strength of Gaia or Summon Kitties at all.

I never said it would. Having only 1 earth on the Pan would limit them to being able to cast those spells, not remove their access to them.

Since NE Panii cost the same price, and don't even attract Maenads I think it would only be fair.

Why should new era Panii be more magically powerful than those of base Pangaea?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
I don't particularly think that it would be more fair to have the New Era Panii more magically powerful than the Base Panii. Attracting Maeneds is all fine and good, but with the 2E Pan he's worth his heafty pricetag.

(1) It's thematic (sort of). NE uses better armor, NE smiths are its Panii, who should be well versed in earth magic for the same reason Master Smiths are.

(2) I can't understand your point about the lack of fairness at all. I agree that attracting Maenads isn't really worth a magic level, but it's more fair by several orders of magnitude than what we've got now: 1 earth level AND maenads vs NOTHING - for the same 350 gold?!? Are you kidding? Plus, default Pangaea gets almost all what NE gets, bar 2 points of protection on a few units, and much much more to make up for that several times.

To downgrade the base Panii and upgrade the New Era doesn't neccesarily fix the problem, but changes it to another.

Hell if I understand why you say that. The only problem is balance, and I can't see this change doing anything but helping fixing that.

I'm fairly certain the biggest gripes of Base Pan are the Satyrs and Minos.

The Satyrs are the same in NE. And base War Minos are just fine - much better than NE Minos.

Not the Panii being overpowered.

They aren't really - but they sure look overpowered when compared to their NE cousins. Or these look underpowered if you prefer. And I see that as a problem.

I would like to see the New Era Panii have 2 Earth, even with the sacrifice of a Nature (Finishing up with 2E2N)

And why wouldn't you want to mahe the NE Pan at least as powerful as the standard one? Do you think NE is a better theme overall?

rather than putting *ANY* Pan at 1E3N. Just for the sake of being able to use Earthpower and forge Boots.

The random pick is still here. Just for the record, Panii in Dominions 1 had 1 earth 3 nature and no random. Pangaea wasn't considered as one of the most powerful nations then, but they weren't crap either.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Except you're wrong: base Panii get 2 earth levels. Moving one of them to NE Panii won't prevent them to use Strength of Gaia or Summon Kitties at all.

I never said it would. Having only 1 earth on the Pan would limit them to being able to cast those spells, not remove their access to them.

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Right, that's what you said. My apologies for the misreading.

Why should new era Panii be more magically powerful than those of base Pangaea?

Balance [Edit: and, as I said before, I find this change 'thematic' ]. Remove the Panii on both themes, NE looks weaker than the default already. With their respectives Panii that difference is even greater.

[ April 28, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) It's thematic (sort of). NE uses better armor, NE smiths are its Panii, who should be well versed in earth magic for the same reason Master Smiths are.

This is where the Magic Paths have multiple meanings. I'm all fine and good that Smiths have Earth because of their forging ability. But Earth also has a meaning of using the earth and it's power for spells, not only forging.

(2) I can't understand your point about the lack of fairness at all. I agree that attracting Maenads isn't really worth a magic level, but it's more fair by several orders of magnitude than what we've got now: 1 earth level AND maenads vs NOTHING - for the same 350 gold?!? Are you kidding? Plus, default Pangaea gets almost all what NE gets, bar 2 points of protection on a few units, and much much more to make up for that several times.

The Lack of Fairness comes from the Theme itself. Base Pan is more wild, NE is more militarized and such. It says right in the theme they have left their roots of wild and magic to become more warlike and militaristic. Using that as a basis for the sake of argument then it could be said "Why are the Pan's more powerful in NE than Base Pan when it says the exact opposite?". I don't think it's fair that NE has less magic, but that their Panii have MORE magic than their supposed Basic "More Magical" Pan cousins.

Hell if I understand why you say that. The only problem is balance, and I can't see this change doing anything but helping fixing that.

If the front window of your car is broken and you change it to the back window, is the window still broken?

The Satyrs are the same in NE. And base War Minos are just fine - much better than NE Minos.

For their cost and effectiveness yes, but this was to say that everyone saying "Those Pans are just way too cheap for what they do" is not a common complaint. Rather it's the Satyrs and Minos that have the complaint.

They aren't really - but they sure look overpowered when compared to their NE cousins. Or these look underpowered if you prefer. And I see that as a problem.

I never said that it wasn't a problem. Only that reducing the Base Panii (which has no obvious problems) does not make sense when it is not they who are the issue, but the NE Panii. Why weaken Base Pan (which is very respectable but not overtly powerful) to put it even with NE? Instead increase NE so that it's even with Base Pan. When I think things need to be fixed, it's not only in the realm of it's base and other themes, but all the nations and their themes.

And why wouldn't you want to mahe the NE Pan at least as powerful as the standard one? Do you think NE is a better theme overall?

No but the developers did (made them less powerful). I see no reason why it should be any different than the Base Pan, they don't strap on Armor and give them Black Steel weapons so they should be basically the same except without Maeneds. But obviously IW thought they should be less powerful for their own reasons (which could be thematic, could be balance) so this was to fit with their vision of it. Or if they are willing to budge on the Panii, just make them the same is my Vote.

The random pick is still here. Just for the record, Panii in Dominions 1 had 1 earth 3 nature and no random. Pangaea wasn't considered as one of the most powerful nations then, but they weren't crap either.

I know that is what they were in Dom1, but obviously they felt a change was in order. I personally like the 2E very much and it adds alot to the theme from getting away from it's *pure* Nature feel. I think Pan right now does very well, with only a few minor issues and of course trying to use a Maenede strategy (which I think should be viable, but is not). NE and CW on the other hand need help.