TRUE effectiveness of VQ/castling/clam-hoarding

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

It can greatly slow the advance of an enemy army, giving you time to regroup. However, if you have nothing to regroup WITH, then what's the point?

And that's highly unlikely, since the regrouping will be all those troops built at all those other castles that aren't under siege... You end up with the nation-equivalent of a porcupine... except there is no soft part
The maneuver seems to work at top efficiency when the national troops are extra-cheap on resources (Marignon anyone?) or junk (Mictlan comes to mind) or a bit of both (um...Pangaea) . At Wizard-Tower level you start getting near-useless provinces (surrounded by 3+ of them) so it starts getting dicey (and yet: careful placement in high-value spots will work wonders for Caelum and Arcos... I may test one of those in my next test-match with T'ien Ch'i, tho it lacks the appeal with the top-class mages capital-only)

[Chazar]

Umh, I'm using the VQ myself because of her flavour, but I dont see the problem with a VQ. Can someone explain to me the problem again concisely?

Sure, the VQ is immortal, but without the right items she's not really useful - and even an immortal unit looses its items upon death...

(Or is it necessary that SC-VQ are equipped with Fire/Earth magic?)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chazar:
Umh, I'm using the VQ myself because of her flavour, but I dont see the problem with a VQ. Can someone explain to me the problem again concisely?

Sure, the VQ is immortal, but without the right items she's not really useful - and even an immortal unit looses its items upon death...

(Or is it necessary that SC-VQ are equipped with Fire/Earth magic?)

Some people are under the belief that VQs, inside their dominion, particularly in conjunction with "mad castling", can be lobbed over and over at an invading army with no real risk.

What they're forgetting is that if you got killed the first time, you're going to get killed again EVERY time you try that same stunt, and while it doesn't really hurt, it doesn't really accomplish anything either, and you'll just die repeatedly while losing castles and temples one by one.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chazar:
Umh, I'm using the VQ myself because of her flavour, but I dont see the problem with a VQ. Can someone explain to me the problem again concisely?

Sure, the VQ is immortal, but without the right items she's not really useful - and even an immortal unit looses its items upon death...

(Or is it necessary that SC-VQ are equipped with Fire/Earth magic?)

Some people are under the belief that VQs, inside their dominion, particularly in conjunction with "mad castling", can be lobbed over and over at an invading army with no real risk.

What they're forgetting is that if you got killed the first time, you're going to get killed again EVERY time you try that same stunt, and while it doesn't really hurt, it doesn't really accomplish anything either, and you'll just die repeatedly while losing castles and temples one by one.

---

2 obvious faults and misleads in such a small post. norf is really pushing it.


VQ may very well kill significant part of the army even if it loses at the end. If she did that, she will almost certanly wipe out the remaining army completely in the next battle or two, unless they recieve massive reinforcements in the same turn.


And even if VQ loses without inflicting much loses on the enemy, nobody said she had to attack alone all the time, making the same mistakes. She may very well take few strong SCs and army to help her in battle, and to distract attention from her while she is wiping the enemy's best troops.

After all you would have to be very stupid "to pull the same stunt if it doesn't accomplish anything".

[ May 27, 2004, 12:49: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[johan osterman]

The VQ will be slightly nerfed in the next patch. The reason being that she was very obviously more priceworthy than the other immortal pretenders, especially if you compared her to the liches. So she will get a cost increase.

[Chazar]

Huh, sorry, keep it low - I didnt want to start another flame war...

I just like the VQ and are about to start a PBEM game with local friends and want to make sure that I am not using a tactic that is invincible...

I using a VQ with Blood3,Death2 with Caelum, because I like access to Blood and Death in order to forge boosting items for my mages. There is no cold-resistant earth mage available which could also satisfy my needs, and the VQ-stealthiness is big boon in order to push my dominion (and hence the cold of my lands) to prepare my attacks.
I was also put off by the blue dragon I tried first, which has only the water magic and gets crippled to easily (the VQ immortaility is another boon, true).

Yet I do not see how a VQ can kill an army without being fully equipped, which is also probably a problem with my magic paths (i usually give her a wraith sword, armor of souls, boots of strength, magic resistance and luck amulet), but even with access to soul vortex I really fear loosing her to my enemies, so i stick to my own dominion and use her and her vampires for defense.

But without her items, I think that she wont stop a whole army. So what am I doing wrong here?

The answer I'd appreciate would be something like: yeah you must give her other magic paths in order to make her the super VQ everyone is complaining about - so that I can use her the same way I did without having a bad remorse...

[archaeolept]

The answer I'd appreciate would be something like: yeah you must give her other magic paths in order to make her the super VQ everyone is complaining about - so that I can use her the same way I did without having a bad remorse

yah, that's right. what you have, a minimal VQ, isn't unbalancing. You need to pour hundreds and hundreds of points into her to make her truly deadly.

[Gandalf Parker]

(this is a ha-ha, a funny, dont get mad)

I can tell you what is in the patch.
A) enough work to represent about 1 change a day (pretty good for not a full-time job)
B) something in response to a subject being hotly debated on this forum
C) something added to the favorite fun-thing of each of the devs. For Johan at the moment something in modding? From Kristoffer something in new in the area of maps or units?
D) some typo fixes and repairs

Of course this is true of every patch, and if you want you can just keep that list handy and post it 5 days after this patch release when people start asking about the next patch.

Ahhhh come on people. Im only half serious.

[ May 27, 2004, 14:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by Chazar:

The answer I'd appreciate would be something like: yeah you must give her other magic paths in order to make her the super VQ everyone is complaining about - so that I can use her the same way I did without having a bad remorse...

I won't go into any imbalance issues but to answer your question and make the VQ effective requires low level path magic to give her access to combat magic. This is true of many SC pretenders, not just the VQ. The advantage of the VQ (whether she is balanced or not) is her immortality plus the fact that she doesn't really need items at all to be effective (until the late game), she has numerous traits, built in, that you would normally use equipment for (ethereal, flying, regen).

You can build her a lot of different ways but one example would be 2 air, 1 water, 2 earth, scripting her to quickness/mistform/mirror image/Summon earth power/invulnerability (or ironskin for earlier game). Or 2 air, 2 water, 1 earth and swap in breath of winter and ironskin for invulnerability.

You can do a lot of other things with her, like giving her fire for phoenix pyre or more death for soul vortex or what not but the above should be a good start for you to play around with, I think.

- Kel

[ May 27, 2004, 15:01: Message edited by: Kel ]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Thank you Johan, that's a very good news. It's great to know that developers are dedicated to continuous balancing and enchancing their game long after the release, not to mention being so active and in touch in the players community. It is very rare sign these days.

I am very tempted to ask what else will be in the patch (especailly if there will be, by any chance, something about 2 other hot topics being discussed here and elsewhere - "mad castling" and "clam hoarding", in the next), but I guess I should better cultivate my patience and wait for it.

Anyway, thanks for sharing it with us Johan.

You might not want to hurray as much as you are. It's not a drastic change and the VQ is still virtually the same. Only in line with the appropriate cost to the Liches. There are other more significant changes that might make you hurray more that impact the same 'problem' with VQ's.