Forgive me... Noob question

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Zen:
Reinvigoration is a little broken right now, but it does remove fatigue from the caster. It's a 1Blood spell that requires a Blood Slave to cast.

yikes... I thought that was fixed with 2.11 patch. Time to change some battle commands.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
yikes... I thought that was fixed with 2.11 patch. Time to change some battle commands.

The reinvigoration spell does work at least partially, as the mage will have zero fatigue after casting it. I imagine that he will also currently waste several blood slaves on the spell to reduce its fatigue cost.

[Taqwus]

Lifedraining a living enemy also works to reduce your fatigue.

Summon Earthpower gives you 4 reinvigoration/turn. Very nice if you have an earth-aware communion master.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by NTJedi:
yikes... I thought that was fixed with 2.11 patch. Time to change some battle commands.

The reinvigoration spell does work at least partially, as the mage will have zero fatigue after casting it. I imagine that he will also currently waste several blood slaves on the spell to reduce its fatigue cost.

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Not according to my observations.

I've tried reinvigoration at least 5 times in my Last game as Vanheim. It didn't reduced the total fatique on my vans at all, much less reset it to zero.

Few times the fatique level stay the same after the Reinvigoration as it did before casting, and few times it went slihtly higher than before (by 2-5 fatique points). The initial level of fatique on my fans was 30-70 (Reinvigoration was obviosly scripted to be 5th spell).

I am sorry if it conradict your or Zen's understanding, but I was very careful with my observations. The only reason I didn't posted about this before is that I assumed that this bug is a common knowledge and that public and devs are well aware of it. (I've asked in IRC channel some regulars, and got an answer along this lines).


Reinvigoration is broken. If your expreience with reinvigoration is different and it did reset your mages to zero or close to zero, that just means that it is is not consistent, sometimes working as it shoud and sometimes not working at all. As I said I've tested it 5 times in different battles, after that I've stoped trying.

[ June 04, 2004, 03:31: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
I am sorry if it conradict your or Zen's understanding, but I was very careful with my observations.

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by insinuating that I'm not being honest about what I've seen?

Reinvigoration is broken. If your expreience with reinvigoration is different and it did reset your mages to zero or close to zero, that just means that it is is not consistent, sometimes working as it shoud and sometimes not working at all.

I have seen it work multiple times with a demonbred.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Zen:
Edit. It is innacurrate. The Master takes a share of the fatigue, but the rounding seems somewhat hokey.

I'm not sure about the rounding either.

I tested it using a group of Shaman in a province with a heat scale that gave them a spell casting encumbrance of 5. The data is listed below:

The first test was with three shamen. Two cast communion slave, the other cast communion master. The slaves were set on {Communion Slave)(hold)(hold)(hold)(hold)(Stay Behind Troops) to keep them from casting spells for a few turns. The master was scripted to (Communion Master)(Star Fires)(Star Fires)(Star Fires)(Star Fires).

The fatigue after the first turn was 25 for each mage. After the second turn, where only the master cast anything, the fatigue was 32 in each mage. With four slaves and a single master, the fatigue after a single casting of star fires was 27. With 5 slaves, the fatigue after a single casting was 26. With 6 slaves, the fatigue on each mage after a single casting of star fires was 26. In a dominion that raised the spellcasting encumbrance to 8, the fatigue with 6 slaves for star fires was 30 (28 after communion, +2 each casting). In a heat 1 dominion, with encumbrance of 4, the fatigue after star fires was 25 all around. For the Last test, the master cast mind burn with 6 slaves, the fatigue on each mage was 27 at that point. I'm not sure exactly how the rounding works, as there's quite a few ways that the data could work out with those numbers.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Not according to my observations.

Try testing with things other than just Van's.

I've tried reinvigoration at least 5 times in my Last game as Vanheim. It didn't reduced the total fatique on my vans at all, much less reset it to zero.

I just did a test run to check speficially Vanjarls. Conclusions are as follows:

2 out 6 Van's Recovered Fatigue (44 to 32)
3 out of 6 Van's Gained Fatigue (44 to 48) /Cost of Enc, I believe/
1 out of 6 Van's had no change (44 to 44)

I am sorry if it conradict your or Zen's understanding, but I was very careful with my observations. The only reason I didn't posted about this before is that I assumed that this bug is a common knowledge and that public and devs are well aware of it. (I've asked in IRC channel some regulars, and got an answer along this lines).

It is common knowledge, but not the full story. I did a test run with Demonbred(2 Blood), Warlock (3 Blood), Pretender (4 Blood) and they all went to 0 Fatigue. I did a test run with Mictlan Priests of the Sun (3 Blood) and they went to 0 Fatigue. And I just did a test with a Vanjarl (2 Blood, +1 Brazen) and it went to 0 Fatigue.

Reinvigoration is broken. If your expreience with reinvigoration is different and it did reset your mages to zero or close to zero, that just means that it is is not consistent, sometimes working as it shoud and sometimes not working at all. As I said I've tested it 5 times in different battles, after that I've stoped trying.

That is wrong, unfortunately. It may not be 'consistant' with Van's, which it is not. But it is consistant with a large number of other units. That's why I said it was "Slightly Broken". When you do future tests and before you 'stop testing' you might want to try it with a few other units to see if it's the behavior of just one unit before making declarations of generalizations.

Edit; I just tried to test Mictlan Priests (1Blood) but it was extraordinarily hard to get the proper amount of blood slaves for them to cast reinvigoration. If someone wants to do a test with them casting Imps and such, please do, I am curious to the results if it is a 1 Blood only issue.

[ June 04, 2004, 14:26: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Sly Frog]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
[qb]I am sorry if it conradict your or Zen's understanding, but I was very careful with my observations.

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by insinuating that I'm not being honest about what I've seen?

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We all need to be really careful with what we're throwing around on this forum. The paranoia and attacks are getting ridiculous. He did not insinuate you were being dishonest; read what he said.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Sly Frog:
He did not insinuate you were being dishonest; read what he said.

Of course he did. He stated that his observations were right, and that ours were wrong. That's no different from saying that we weren't telling the truth when we report what we saw.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sly Frog:
He did not insinuate you were being dishonest; read what he said.

Of course he did. He stated that his observations were right, and that ours were wrong. That's no different from saying that we weren't telling the truth when we report what we saw.

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Arrgh.

What are you talking about? I accursed you or Zen of lying? I said that according to my observation on Vans (which Zen confirmed with 6 tests below) the reinvigoration is broken. I also specifically said that if it is contrary to your and Zen's observation, it means that
"reinvigoration sometimes working as it should and sometimes not working at all. " (quote)

Which turned out to be exactly the case here, as Zen confirmed with his recent tests.


I never had a sligtest intention of accursng you or Zen of lying and I never did. First I have no reason whatsoever to believe in your or Zen's dishonesty. Second regardless of that, I know much better than accurse anyone of lying in such things, being programmer with 15 + years of expereince, because bugs in the program can easely appear in some situations and dissapear in others.


All I said is that in all my attempts with vans to use Reinvigoration (5 attempts) has failed. Zen just confirmed the same thing with his testing. Based upon his future expereiments bug with Reinvigoration appeares to be limited to either:
(a) Vanheim only or
(b) any level 1 blood mages


Frankly Graeme I rather expected "thank you" when I pointed into the bug in the program that people appeared to be unaware off, based upon your and Zen's Posts, instead of angry reaction that I got from you, and to the lesser degree from Zen.


To Zen:

Originally posted by Zen:


That is wrong, unfortunately. It may not be 'consistant' with Van's, which it is not. But it is consistant with a large number of other units. That's why I said it was "Slightly Broken".

I beg your pardon but you have said that

Originally posted by Zen:


Reinvigoration (the spell) is a little broken right now, but it does remove fatigue from the caster.

You never said anything about removing fatique from some races (or for bloodmages higher than level 1) but not others.


Does it means you were lying? No, it does not. Does it mean your were mistaken? Yes, it does.


Why the hell some people hate so much to admit when they are wrong?!?

Regards,
very frustrated Stormbinder

[ June 04, 2004, 17:12: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]