Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

[Hunpecked]

Very interesting discussion between El_Phil and Starhawk. Some more comments:

The "weak" Icaran army: Ah, now I get it. The army was a basically sound institution in temporary decline because of neglect and mismanagement. The resulting opportunity was just too good for the Spartans to pass up.

Firearms: I agree with El_Phil on the difficulty of adopting a new weapons technology. The whole process should go a lot faster, however, if the importer can capture/bribe the needed experts and/or buy sufficient weapons from smugglers or neutral parties while building up its own infrastructure.

Easy conquests: I can think of one way an enemy state could seemingly collapse after a long resistance. Suppose the Icarans developed extensive and sophisticated subversion, propaganda, and "black ops" capabilities. When the effects of propaganda, bribes, blackmail, assassination, sabotage, etc. reach the "tipping point", resistance could collapse in a relatively short time. Of course the Icarans would also have to develop effective assimilation techniques or, as El_Phil points out, their new "assets" would be more like ticking time bombs.

Decline and fall: El_Phil also has a good point about the long span of the Icaran Empire; such an empire is unique in human history. Egypt, Macedon, Rome, Mongolia, Spain, Turkey, and England built great empires, but in the end they were all temporary. Various combinations of internal decay, rebellion, and outside pressure brought them all down eventually. The Icaran empire has to have a character not found in these other states, a character that's flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances but durable enough to last millenia. As I recall, Starhawk has written about advanced education/indoctrination techniques and the option of "removing" an ineffective Praetor in the "modern" Icaran empire, which is a fair start.

Iron: I browsed around the web a bit, and found sites confirming El_Phil's data on iron's drawbacks compared to bronze. There is speculation that iron finally supplanted bronze in the Med mainly because of some kind of disruption of the tin trade, making bronze almost unobtainable.

The story might make sense if the Icarans had developed steel, but that would require substantial advances in smelting and metalworking. Perhaps the inventive Icarans had been playing with steel for some years as a curiosity (its military potential overlooked by the Triumvirate), and only turned to it in earnest out of desperation.

Alternatively, maybe the Icarans' armor advance was in design rather than material. I know little about armor, but I understand the Romans wore mail instead of the Greek hoplite breastplate. I gather mail is lighter than plate armor, so perhaps that would give the Icaran infantry the edge on their opponents. However, as I recall one disadvantage of mail is the labor required to make it.

Any armor experts on the forum?

[El_Phil]

Well it all hangs together a bit more now, this is a good thing. As longs as its a nice propaganda history, or better 'Approved' history. I think that fits, a nice "Historically clarified" official history, very Icaran I think.

However, you don't know your fictional Nazis and this can be a crippling problem. There are three main types, Jungle, Hollow Earth and Space.
1. Jungle. Fleeing to Brazil/Colombia/The Amazon this group have the simple aim of cloning Hitler. Or, if they're lucky, growing a new body to implant their 'Hitler brain in a jar' they smuggled out of Berlin. Using evil genetics and much manical laughter they hide away and generally aren't much of a threat.
2. Hollow Earth. Following maps this group ran to the North Pole, found the hole and climbed inside the hollow earth. Once inside they produced a series of elaborate machines designed to make the earth appear not hollow to seismologists. With this done they settled back to control world affairs with their vast wealth. The source of this wealth is mysterious, perhaps lava mines, perhaps they found a lost world inside the hollow earth (ala Doug McClure), who knows?
3. Space. Fleeing on a V4 rocket a vast evil base was established on the dark side of the moon. This group contained most of the mad scientists who are devoted to making giant super weapons to threaten Earth with, hence why their existence was hushed up by both the US and Russia. In between building super lasers their hobbies include treaties with Aliens, conspiracies and plotting elaborate revenge on the Hollow Earth Nazis, because they got the far better deal.

For you see all three groups dislike each other and want to destroy the other two. Should they ever work together we area all surely doomed. Doomed do you here? Doomed!

[El_Phil]

Hunpecked said:
The story might make sense if the Icarans had developed steel, but that would require substantial advances in smelting and metalworking. Perhaps the inventive Icarans had been playing with steel for some years as a curiosity (its military potential overlooked by the Triumvirate), and only turned to it in earnest out of desperation.

Alternatively, maybe the Icarans' armor advance was in design rather than material. I know little about armor, but I understand the Romans wore mail instead of the Greek hoplite breastplate. I gather mail is lighter than plate armor, so perhaps that would give the Icaran infantry the edge on their opponents. However, as I recall one disadvantage of mail is the labor required to make it.

Any armor experts on the forum?

Useable steel is clever metalurgy, far beyond anything involved in Bronze. The main clever factor is the carbon level, get that wrong and you get horribly brittle steel, or no real advantage. You reforge iron several times and it gets stronger though, but not massively so.

In short the irons you'd be producing are going to be horrible to work with as well as being much more expensive in both fuel and labour.

If the Icarans can pull a blast furnace out of somewhere (just a really huge and very hot bellows forge) and kick out some cast iron, take part of that, heat it in air a great deal to get wrought iron and then mix the cast and wrough together they might get steel. Or a horrible mess.

I can't think of any other possible way to get decent steels that early though. Of course just because its possible, doesn't mean it's plausible.

[Atrocities]

You should get David Gervais to do the art work for you.

[Starhawk]

Hunpecked said:
Very interesting discussion between El_Phil and Starhawk. Some more comments:

The "weak" Icaran army: Ah, now I get it. The army was a basically sound institution in temporary decline because of neglect and mismanagement. The resulting opportunity was just too good for the Spartans to pass up.

Firearms: I agree with El_Phil on the difficulty of adopting a new weapons technology. The whole process should go a lot faster, however, if the importer can capture/bribe the needed experts and/or buy sufficient weapons from smugglers or neutral parties while building up its own infrastructure.

Easy conquests: I can think of one way an enemy state could seemingly collapse after a long resistance. Suppose the Icarans developed extensive and sophisticated subversion, propaganda, and "black ops" capabilities. When the effects of propaganda, bribes, blackmail, assassination, sabotage, etc. reach the "tipping point", resistance could collapse in a relatively short time. Of course the Icarans would also have to develop effective assimilation techniques or, as El_Phil points out, their new "assets" would be more like ticking time bombs.

Decline and fall: El_Phil also has a good point about the long span of the Icaran Empire; such an empire is unique in human history. Egypt, Macedon, Rome, Mongolia, Spain, Turkey, and England built great empires, but in the end they were all temporary. Various combinations of internal decay, rebellion, and outside pressure brought them all down eventually. The Icaran empire has to have a character not found in these other states, a character that's flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances but durable enough to last millenia. As I recall, Starhawk has written about advanced education/indoctrination techniques and the option of "removing" an ineffective Praetor in the "modern" Icaran empire, which is a fair start.

Iron: I browsed around the web a bit, and found sites confirming El_Phil's data on iron's drawbacks compared to bronze. There is speculation that iron finally supplanted bronze in the Med mainly because of some kind of disruption of the tin trade, making bronze almost unobtainable.

The story might make sense if the Icarans had developed steel, but that would require substantial advances in smelting and metalworking. Perhaps the inventive Icarans had been playing with steel for some years as a curiosity (its military potential overlooked by the Triumvirate), and only turned to it in earnest out of desperation.

Alternatively, maybe the Icarans' armor advance was in design rather than material. I know little about armor, but I understand the Romans wore mail instead of the Greek hoplite breastplate. I gather mail is lighter than plate armor, so perhaps that would give the Icaran infantry the edge on their opponents. However, as I recall one disadvantage of mail is the labor required to make it.

Any armor experts on the forum?

Regarding the army: Yeah you've got it now The army was essentially a sound force except for that it was neglected by a poor government.

Re: Firearms, like I said I will change it so that the Yuan basically just kept the guns from any Icaran soldiers they killed. Then replicated older more primitive firearms and relied on their massed numbers to win the war for them.

Re: Easy conquests, you pretty much got the Idea Hunpecked, Icara used its military might to conquer a territory and then its political might to secure it. Enough bribes/assassinations and purifications and after a while the resistance fades into nothingness.

RE: Rise and Fall, well the main reason Macedon fell is lack of an heir, Rome fell because of its own grotesque decadance and the careless spending of massive ammounts of hard cash that could only be replaced via conquest added to political corruption.

Icara is different from these Empires in many ways:

1. They consider their Praetor a living saint chosen by God himself, and unlike Romans they do not consider the Praetor something replaceable in the political sense (Basically the Praetor's family has no competition for the position).
The Praetorian family is not inbred and is in fact strictly monitored by family historians to ensure that this never becomes an issue, the good thing here is also that since the females can not ever become Praetor and only the eldest daughter or sister of the Praetor can give birth to an heir if the Praetanii (Praetor's wife) can not, none of his male relatives count as heirs unless they are eldest Nephew or Eldest grandson.
There are very few cases in history of corrupt Praetors and their degenerate eldest heirs running into "accidents" within a short period of time, however there is always a clear line of succession.

2. The Icaran Empire is a much more "friendly" appearing Empire in that they did not ever take human slaves, and in fact liberated tens of thousands of slaves from other Empires as they conquered their way across the globe which allows them to potray themselves somewhat saintly even in a primitive society.

3. Any traitor to the Empire is not simply seen as a traitor by the people but as a Heretic because they betrayed not simply a man made Empire, but they betrayed the God given Rule of the Praetor. This added fire of hatred toward traitors is a good tool to keep people loyal because heretics suffer very unpleasent deaths as do any of their family that show the same inclination. (This is early Empire by time we reach the space age and beyond though traitors are still seen as heretics they are generally either executed alone (I.e their entire family isn't killed) or banished to the frontiers. Though banishment is in and of its self a near death sentence depending on what the current "frontier" happens to be.

4. The Icarans have in fact evolved slowly on a "visible" level for most of their traditions remain the same as they were for millenia, however they do adapt and modernize and though by our standards the modern Empire is "harsh" it is a varitable pussycat compared to Early Imperial history. Hell the First Icaran Crusade led to more people being executed after the fighting then died during, and though this Crusade is seen as the first step towards Empire it is also seen as a tragic period for Icara.

5. Icaran children are raised in a rather militarized education system that raises them to respect and idealize not "The State" but instead "The Community", self denial for the good of all and a level of community awareness we only wish modern citizens of the modern world had. Don't take this to assume Icarans are drones because overall they are actually proudly individualistic, it is just that they are raised by their parents and their school system to beleive that the good of others is more important then themselves.


Add to this Icara forbade all forms of wellfare back in the early 1590s IY and instead instituted a forced work ethic where if you can't find a job by time you reach a certain age the government gives you one. (And you don't get to pick and choose) In turn however you do receive fair pay and labor hours. This plus the fact that Icara gives enough technology only ot enhance human workers ability to produce goods (and not to replace humans themselves) and you have virtually zero unemployment.
Those who are unemployed out of any reason beyond mental or physical inability are seen as "draggers" and looked down upon by virtually all Icarans.

6. Icara has actually "fallen" twice and had to completely reform it's society, The Icaran Principality was replaced by the Icaran Empire after the Triumverate was overthrown. And the second time after the UN (Later to be known as Sol Coalition) drove Icara and the ESS out of Sol the Icaran Empire was replaced by the Icaran Royal Empire with the merged ESS populace and culture influencing Icaran development.
The Icarans however are remarkably stubborn people and very traditionalist which helped greatly in ensuring that some form of Icara survived long enough to grow again.

7. The final Major difference in Icaran society is that the nobility is as answerable to the law as an average citizen, Nobles don't get "privilage" in any way except the fact that they are usually pretty wealthy and the amount of authority they have within their province.
Politically corrupt or cruel nobles have been removed by the Military on more then one occasion throughout history and many more have been executed for causing needless Icaran deaths.

Even if a Noble decided they would rebel it would be incredibly difficult for them to gain any support, much less from the military. And if they did manage to gain enough support to pull for independence the full might of Icara's available forces will be dropped on their heads shortly there after.

The only noble who ever got close to killing the Praetor led an army of some 25,000 people in the year 1150 IY but this army was butchered to the last man and woman by the "Praetor's Own" and local army regiments, even average citizens swarmed over the traitors and almost 8,000 Icaran civilians died on the blades of the traitor's army. Not only was this noble executed but every single male in his family was drawn and quartered and every woman and girl rendered baron. (As I said Early Imperial history was Brutal and is not often discussed by modern Icarans)

Icara managed to ride out these rough times and eventually became a society that learned moderation in it's responses, though of course by modern US standards they are still brutal and harsh.

[El_Phil]

So we have divine right of kings (saintly, virtualy un-questionable and un-replaceable leader. You get rid of one his son takes over) and communism (work or we kill you, bad wages for all as you can't afford good wages for all, work for the 'greater good'). And a theocracy (heretics if you disagree.)

Frankly that makes it seem less likely they'd last till next week, let alone thousands of years!

Civil wars have been fought over the divine right of kings. The kings lose. Almost every time. Power does corrupt and it only takes one bad absolute monarch to lose a kingdom.

You have a highly millitarised and religious society that believe in the greater good. Recipe for disaster and very successfull rebellions. Once someone starts a revolt the army units sent to crush it are going to think 'Hey they have a point, the best thing for society would to be to kill this Praetor, he's [censored].' and join in. The community is more important than the state or their lives.

[Starhawk]

Who said bad wages for all? They have a good economic base and pay not unlike what your average yank would have. It's just that they don't give you a choice if you have no job and can't find employment by yourself they find a job for you.
It's basically just career placement without the option of you going "Well fast food isn't my thing" they go "Well it is until you get a better job".

They don't kill you either you just get treated like a second class citizen if you are unemployed, and uh if you haven't noticed that's pretty much how we look at the unemployed today the only difference is they actually TRY to give you a chance at getting a job where our government goes "Want welfare?".

Communism has nothing to do with their government or economy as the government does not own any corporations much less control the overall economy, it does force people into the workforce if they are capable but that just removes the issue of useless money sucking people who give nothing back.


They are far from communist and have a free market not unlike that of the modern Western powers.

LOL one of the reason "Divine right" suffered problems is because there were always soooo many people who could contend for the throne, Icara eliminated that problem.


As far as your second paragraph goes actually your theory is flawed, the average Icaran citizen would never think of killing the Praetor as they have been raised from childhood to beleive in his sainthood and most people wouldn't go kill a saint

The "Shadow daggers" who are the only ones who have ever killed Praetor's are not exactly "average" Icarans and are raised as a seperate society that is taught justice and how to properly police the Nobles and the Praetor should they ever have to. This was actually instituted by the fourth Icaran Praetor who saw it as a necessar step for Icara's survival for the very reason you stated One bad monarch allowed to rule for life can destroy the Empire.
So if he has an "accident" before he can do serious damage, and a suitable heir can be selected then you preserve the peace. (And just so you know the Shadow daggers always have to have a damn good reason for killing any noble much less the Praetor and can't do it like the Praetorian Guard of Rome did)

They are not "militarized" in the sense you seem to think, their school system is pretty similar to a military academy in that it emphasizes "units" "squads" and community. Plus loyalty to "The Community" over that of personal goals.

And since the Praetor is pretty much the head of "The Community" it would be detrimental to kill him

Like I said El_Phil the Icaran society has evolved along lines totally different then most human societies and having a population that is raised to work, compete and be absolutely Loyal and faithful is actually a PLUS to running a government.

Oh and religious does not= recipe for disaster if anything it might strengthen the sense of community and loyalty, especially in that there are several religions legal within Icaran borders. But I don't want to start an argument over the virtue of religion so I'll leave it at that.

[edit]Oh I also realize I did not answer to your part of "One absolute monarch" well in this sense the Icaran Praetor is not "absolute" as there is a nobility in place to run the provincial affairs of Empire. And in the latter Royal Empire the Icaran nobles can go years or even decades without hearing much from the government beyond recruitment and resource needs of the Empire.
The Praetor decides the overall course of the Empire and can set policy however it is the duty of the Nobles to carry out said policies and orders.

I have not fully figured out how to properly explain the Icaran empire as it is a totally unique form of government but there are enough checks and balances in place to ensure no one man can cause the Entire empire to go to hell.[/edit]

[El_Phil]

I don't care how good your economy is, you aren't paying everyone well. Someone, somewhere is getting shafted. Of course if that's somone outside your country, that's OK. But someone gets exploited.

So you've got lots of goverment created jobs... Hmmm burecratic goodness, which are going to be work creation pure and simple. Things that don't need doing, but get done to give people jobs. There are only so many roads you can build and so on. This gets pricey very quickly, especially if its a 'good' wage.

The problem with divine right was "Why the hell does that guy run the country just because he was born to it?" So there are nobles helping? Wonderful! "Why does that bunch of guys run the country, just because they're born to it?"

Your counter argument is wrong, the second easiest way to become a saint is to be martyred. People have regularly killed saint like people. So unless none of the Icarans have any free will or independent thought they will resist goverment brain washing. Which is what they seem to do, raise 'em to believe this and nothing else.

Finally if your main aim is the community then just because someones the head, doesn't mean killing them wouldn't be good. If you say 'Everyone's subject to laws, except the boss' that's just going to piss people off more.

An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine.

[Starhawk]

Point 1: Well yeah actually you got it right on the nose someone OUTSIDE the empire is being exploited economically Not Icarans.

Point 2: Well think of it like this fastfood companies have VAST turnover because no one wants to work there for long, and many of these people end up unemployed for quite a while (and I've met two that just went on wellfare for a good long while because nothing "suited them") the Icaran government basically says "No way in hell your quiting that fast food job until you get a better one lined up and prove it." they also don't give out wellfare so slobs can sit on their butts at home.

Think about how many wellfare people suck up cash in the US and don't do anything worthwhile in return (not counting those who literally can't work), instead of getting paid to sit on their butts and drink beer the Icarans only pay them when they are doing something productive for the Empire.

It actually creates economic growth because not only are you increasing productivity but you are increasing the amount of people who can buy goods thus increasing both supply and demand at the same time.

A "good wage" doesn't mean white collar, they do have minimum wage jobs yah know And the government doesn't pay them the company the government sent them to does just like a modern company.

The problem with your argument over "Divine Right" is that Icarans have been raised for litterally GENERATIONS to beleive in this process, it's in their very "nature" to have a Praetor and it's hard if not impossible for them to imagine another form of government that could work.
Just like when you walk up to a guy who's from a democratic government and he can't imagine living in any other form of government.

Essentially Icarans are allowed to live their lives freely as long as they violate no laws and are productive citizens so why should they even question the status quo?
A generally content and well treated and cared for population that feels like their government is not above the law (which as I stated many times the Praetor and Nobility aren't) and is generally watching out for their well being has no reason to rebel just for the sake of it.

Hell you know how many people in America right after the Revolution wanted to establish a Monarchy?

The Icaranverse never had a "Democratic" revolution that succeded or if it did it turned into a bloodbath so Democracy to an Icaran or voting for leaders to an Icaran is as alien as having a Praetorship and Nobility is to us.

The point I'm trying to make El-Phil is history for them did not bring about the call for democracy or republic until long after the Icaran Empire left the sol system and by then no Icarans were around to think about "Hmm Democracy?"

Our idea of sainthood btw requires someone to be dead Theirs does not so your argument there is flawed.

El_Phil you have grown up in a society where "Free will" generally means the right to question everything everyone else does and then moan about it as much as you want if you want or praise it as much as you want if you want.

Icarans grew up in a world where free will means you get to live your life for the most part as you see fit except that you follow a government that you were raised to beleive in and follow and defend.

Look at it this way the average Icaran is better educated then the average American, Canadian or Japanese, they always have the option of finding a job (even if it means joining the military)and they know that unless the seriously screw up and break the law they won't even have to worry about the government beyond paying taxes and possibly being drafted in times of war.

They aren't brutally opressed in every facet of life (unless they rebel and I doubt the US would take kindly to rebels either) they generally get to go where they want within their province (they do require passports to cross into other provinces) and do what they want.
They even have a freedom of religion (as long as it is one of the legal ones which are not state regulated) and in some extent freedom of press.

The average Icaran would feel safe because crime is punished with absolutely no appeal, and their police are better equipped and better trained then any we could match. Thus their streets are safe.
Anyone who even kidnaps a child (unless it is a parent and for rare circumstances) is hung in public so people aren't as afraid of letting their children play outside.

You don't seem to realize El_Phil that life inside the Empire is fairly good by our standards, so they don't have many of the freedom's we do but you can't miss what you never had in the first place can you? Especially when you're entire culture beleives that those freedoms are dangerous.

And there is nothing wrong with a culture that emphasizes community good over personal greed and self interest. Of course they compete with one another in the work place and in sports and the like but when it comes to the important stuff they are there for one another and they know they can count on their neighbors.

You automatically seem to assume that there are things like "thought police" roaming the streets beating people up and this simply isn't so.


And when it comes down to your other arguments again it's from the point of someone raised in a culture where we elect people and still wonder why the hell they are in charge lol I mean you know how many people VOTE for a politico and then turn around and go "Who put them in charge?"

I'm sure there would be Icarans wondering "Why are they in charge?" but they are the population that would do that even if they had elected the folks in the first place.

Oh and BTW most Nobles are not "born" to position most of the time they are selected by the Praetor and the Five High Lords (who are the only nobles born to rank). There ARE nobles born to rank but only when it is a family trait to excel in that given position.

In fact one of the reasons the Empire does absorb other countries relatively easily is that it selects the least rebelious leaders of that nation and makes them the local government, which has caused rebellions but has for the most part led people to be more peaceful in transition because it is someone they already know and trust.


Of course after 6,000 years of existance there have been dozens of rebellions, riots and border wars but for the most part the average Icaran is loyal because they have no reason not to be, and after a generation or so has passed even "new provinces" would start to see the major benefits of being a part of Icara and would likely be willing to go with the flow.

I mean El_Phil the idea of anything BUT a heredetary rulership is relatively newborn to THIS world, and theirs has had none of the major historic events that even got our ancestors thinking of true democracy and republic.

I mean I hate to break it to you but not even America rebelled because of the British Monarchy they rebelled because they were a pampered pet that got told they'd need to start paying taxes on par with the rest of England and they didn't like it. lol

"An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine. "

And here's what an Icaran would say.

"An elected rich SOB who uses smeer campaigns and political double talk to reach officer, and makes promises he's not legally required to keep? And a Nation that practically forbids any form of religious expression in government Oh my God I can't imagine a worse form of government."

We tend to think along the lines that "we're right everyone else is doomed to failure and wrong." they simply have a different culture that beleives in a government we don't and the whole POINT of Icara is to take a look at humans who grew up differently from us and have faced threats we can't imagine that have shaped them differently then us.

Beleive it or not El_Phil even today there are governments that have Born leaders (there are also tribes that have born leaders though these barely count) and are perfectly happy.

[Hunpecked]

El_Phil writes: "But someone gets exploited."

A "low" wage isn't exploitation if a worker is being paid approximately what he's worth to his employer. Assuming a bell curve for human abilities, a "fair" economic system would actually be expected to include low wages as well as high. If the system permits workers to climb the economic ladder (e.g. no castes), I don't see a lot of discontent over economic issues.

El_Phil doubts the "divine right of kings" as a stabilizing factor, yet I think he underestimates the power of religion. Historically, true believers have suffered martyrdom, fought terrible wars, and happily executed suicide missions in the name of their deities. A political leader who also embodies the religious faith of his people has gone a long way toward solidifying his power.

Given the proper tradition and indoctrination, I don't see discontent rising to the levels El_Phil seems to expect. Up until the end of World War II Japan was solidly behind its government and god-emperor, despite its defeats and the terrible suffering of its people. Suicide became a standard way of waging war, and both soldiers and civilians routinely committed suicide to avoid capture. If this kind of system could co-exist with major democratic nations, couldn't the Icaran system be even more successful in an alternate world that may never have produced Athenian democracy or the Roman republic?

I do have my own doubts about Starhawk's premises; for example I don't see how the "religious freedom" he mentions can be consistent with the semi-divine status of the Praetor--the last thing you want is any hint whatsoever that the state religion may be wrong. I'm also wary of using the word "crusade" in a world that may never have seen the Crusades, or even Islam and Christianity. And I don't like the idea that the "military" can remove nobles--without absolute civilian control of the military, the "banana republic" syndrome is all too likely.

But I do think that religion, indoctrination, and prosperity are plausible as a basis for government stability and longevity. And I like the idea that the Icaran state has "reinvented" itself a couple times along the way--a series of "successor states" to me makes more sense than one immortal empire. With a little more work on the checks and balances, Starhawk may soon have himself a nice little fictional society.