Bug in AI buys?

[DRG]

A "Germany Delay versus Great Britain Advance in June 1940" with Germany having 4500 points should give the Brit AI close to 8940-8950 points. How did you calculate 9740 ?

When I set up a generated battle with GB advancing on Germany with Germany having 4500 points as the delaying force I see the Brit AI getting a lot of A13's and A9's and in the four battles I set up not one Matilda 2.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this problem but I need to know where your numbers are coming from

Attach a save game.

Don

[Mobhack]

June 1940 is in France 40, and the only matilda 2s you will see is if the mixed matilda 1&2 coy is bought (rare). And it is mainly matilda 1.

Perhaps the original poster is mixing up Matilda 1 (little thing with a MG only) with matilda 2 (big brute with a 2 pounder)?. Or - he is mixing up 1941 (desert) with 1940 (France)?.

If it is the desert - matildas in 41 are reasonably common, as there were many in the RTR regiments. (They even made it to Malta - I have seen a picture of one being used to tow a pranged early-model blenheim off a runway.)


New EXE changes
AI pick has been changed for the new EXE to make cruisers more common vs GE in 41, and in 40 and 41, to use A10 heavies (sic ! - these have been changed to "light infantry tank" class in thier own formations. Were reasonably common in france 40, early desert war, and Greece. Dates also changed for A10 - were only in service from 39.

Also changed it to be more cruiser oriented vs Italy to 42, as the Italians have a real bad time with Matildas and Valentines with only the 47mm gun. (need the 75mm AA gun, which is big, and has limited AP ammo).

The UK OOB now has the AT-roled 25 pounder, which it will buy in the defence in the early desert war period.

All this should make playing vs the UK easier in 41 as GE and IT.

The Indians still rely pretty much on Matildas (the Indian divisions usually had UK RTR regiments attached - if the ID tags are on, you will see these have UK flags) and the Australians may use captured M13-40 sometimes.

Cheers
Andy

[Charles22]

snake said:
Charles,
Well, the very next mission against GB was a meeting engagement and guess what? Yep, almost all Matilda II tanks again. That's now 4 in a row counting 1 French nothing but char bis buy.
In fact, the AI bought 35 Tanks. 3 A13, 4 Valentines and 28 Matilda II's. There were also 16 light varients plus cars and the usual 9 40mm, 8 25 pdr, 2 4.5" and 4 3" artillery sections. The rest of the 175 units was rifle sections - no transport.
So I'm not sure this rarity thing is working regardless of points available?! BTW my force value was 3960.

As a side note, I turned down art effectiveness to 10% while I wait for the patch to fix indirect fire top hits but it didn't make any difference that I can tell. The art falls near my armor - boom - armor gone. But at least I can do the same to him!

Considering that's only 28 Mati's that's entirely within regimental parameters. It just so happens that you're such a bad dude that the enemy is taking you more seriously .

What is the map size you have been playing on? I play with a 200X140, or so, map, and I don't have those problems, but then I haven't played this recent version but once so far and that was an offensive assault on my part. I either had 3,000 or 3,200 core points. Despite all the support given to such an assault, I only used only about 500pts worth. I'm just thinking that with a larger map and/or a somewhat smaller core, that the AI will shift his purchasing a bit.

The Mati of course is notorious for lack of speed, which in a larger map the AI may be much more reluctant to pick, however, I'm somewhat surprised, given the AI aptitude for dash in meeting engagements, that it picked that many anyway. I'm afraid you can't inflict enough damage on the Brits to make them surrender before the greatest part of your force is ripped to shreds. I'm afraid you're on your own, and it's time to fight to the last man .

[snake]

OK fans,
Now it's 5 missions in a row. My next meeting engagement with GB back in the Balkans in April 1941 sees me facing all Matilda II tanks again with some Valentine's thrown in.

It is April 1941 in the Balkans against GB in a meeting engagement. Long campaign on an 80X80 map with my German force at 3968 points.

Andy,

No, these are all MATILDA II tanks - have never seen the Matilda I yet with the TMG. These all have 2 pdr AT weapons and MG's. A few are the CS version with 3" howitzers. This buy is a little better (more realistic) than the previous ones but it's now 41 and not 40.

It is 1941 in this mission but as I've said, all the previous were in 1940. In fact, I'm a little surprised the long campaign skipped almost 10 months with a 200 mission limit entered at the start.

Yay, for the future EXE fixes - thanks!

Charles,
I got my figure of purchase points for the AI by starting a campaign as GB and buying all the equipment, as near as I could, that I've seen in my missions.
That is my issue, I could have bought all Matilda II tanks in Sept 39 as the GB player right from a long campaign start and just kept buying them - they never greyed out or were not available.
That means the rarity issue is not being factored in if I can do that. And I assume the AI can as well.

Here is the save game of the mission currently in play (Meeting engagement against GB in Balkans - my 5th against mostly heavy armor only in a row). I was smart enough to buy 4 extra 88's in anticipation so I'm doing well in this one picking the slow monsters off and close assault has been VERY LUCKY! I also set the Art to 10% and in this mission, at least, it seems to have lessened the top hit kill effect on armor to a more reasonable level - I've only lost a few instead of everybody in the blast radius all the time.

EDIT: OK, finished the mission - final count - 31 Matilda II's, 8 Valentines, 15 Diamler A/C, 2 RR A/C, 5 dingo, 4 2pdr portee, 3 A9, 5 3", 9 40mm bofors, 2 25pdr troops and the balance of 170 units was rifle sections. A reasonable force value for the points but it should have been many more cruisers and a few Matildas.

Thanks for listening,
Snake

[DRG]

1] There have been changes to the AI picks that have lowered the chance of Matilda 2's from being bought by the AI in the early part of the war. However, I have generated dozens of battles with both the games release EXE and the modified EXE and I have yet to see an overwhelming number of Matilda 2's bought in the release EXE when battles in 1940 are fought. 18 has been the max I have seen so far and that was with a tank heavy setting with 10,000 points. What can I say ? You saw it but I don't and in any event the EXE and the OOB has been altered so that it won't happen again


2] Rarity, in WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT is based on if a unit is "average" "uncommon". "common" and "unavailable" to the AI. We do not set "rarity" limits on how many of this or that you can buy. That is a "feature" that we have no plans to add to this game as most players like to make their own minds up about who should have what . Yes, a player COULD buy nothing but Matilda 2's if he were the Brit player in 1940. That's his choice. Choice is good. If someone wants to buy what he considers a historical mix of units that's his choice as well and the game "allows" that just as it "allows" him to command a company of Tiger tanks if he so desires without the "game nanny" deciding...... " No Johnny...you've had enough of those, go play with something else now.....". We DO try to create the AI pick lists with reasonable limits on things. That's why you won't see the German AI getting fleets of Tiger tanks but we will not be introducing limits on what you can or cannot buy. It's a game. If someone wants to see what he could do against the Germans in May of 1940 with more than the "historical" number of Matilda 2's he's quite free to do so just as the player who wants to see how he could do with the more historical unit mix.

3} If you want to find out exactly what the AI bought in a campaign and how much it cost convert the campaign save game to a sceanrio save simply by renaming it to an empty sceanrio slot number and then copy it to the sceanrio folder and then start the game and open it in the editor with the "Buy" button

Don

[Charles22]

snake said:
OK fans,
Now it's 5 missions in a row. My next meeting engagement with GB back in the Balkans in April 1941 sees me facing all Matilda II tanks again with some Valentine's thrown in.

It is April 1941 in the Balkans against GB in a meeting engagement. Long campaign on an 80X80 map with my German force at 3968 points.

Andy,

No, these are all MATILDA II tanks - have never seen the Matilda I yet with the TMG. These all have 2 pdr AT weapons and MG's. A few are the CS version with 3" howitzers. This buy is a little better (more realistic) than the previous ones but it's now 41 and not 40.

It is 1941 in this mission but as I've said, all the previous were in 1940. In fact, I'm a little surprised the long campaign skipped almost 10 months with a 200 mission limit entered at the start.

Yay, for the future EXE fixes - thanks!

Charles,
I got my figure of purchase points for the AI by starting a campaign as GB and buying all the equipment, as near as I could, that I've seen in my missions.
That is my issue, I could have bought all Matilda II tanks in Sept 39 as the GB player right from a long campaign start and just kept buying them - they never greyed out or were not available.
That means the rarity issue is not being factored in if I can do that. And I assume the AI can as well.

Here is the save game of the mission currently in play (Meeting engagement against GB in Balkans - my 5th against mostly heavy armor only in a row). I was smart enough to buy 4 extra 88's in anticipation so I'm doing well in this one picking the slow monsters off and close assault has been VERY LUCKY! I also set the Art to 10% and in this mission, at least, it seems to have lessened the top hit kill effect on armor to a more reasonable level - I've only lost a few instead of everybody in the blast radius all the time.

EDIT: OK, finished the mission - final count - 31 Matilda II's, 8 Valentines, 15 Diamler A/C, 2 RR A/C, 5 dingo, 4 2pdr portee, 3 A9, 5 3", 9 40mm bofors, 2 25pdr troops and the balance of 170 units was rifle sections. A reasonable force value for the points but it should have been many more cruisers and a few Matildas.

Thanks for listening,
Snake

Almost 4000pts on a 80X80 map? You're forcing him to buy expensive stuff because he almost can't use all those points otherwise. Play as GB yourself and see how many units you can buy "without" Matilda II's. Hitting the 200 unit limit mark won't be too difficult, but even if you see a lot of leeway, imagine that nation purchasing two to three times that amount when it has to assault you (and this isn't even considering buying support points). It simply won't be enough and matters will be even worse when you face the super-cheap USSR. Seeing 28-33 Matildas doesn't worry me too much, but facing gobs of KV's does, and even just using 3,350 core points as I currently do, does scare me a bit that the AI will run into the unit number limit and thereby get cheated, or will start putting out the most expensive stuff to compensate.

[Mobhack]

The long campaign will skip periods of inactivity, just like the game will. E.g. from France 40 to the desert 41, as nothing was happening.

Cheers
Andy

[snake]

Charles,
I can certainly delete some of my core units to bring it into balance if my original 3000 buy is too much.
I'm not sure what the size map has to do with the choice of units?
My original German buy was just 38 AFV's (15 tanks, 12 cs tanks, 5 recon, 3 td's 3 stugs), 20 infantry squads and their transports plus two 88's. I upgraded some tanks and men and the value went to 3890 but the numbers remain at 80 TOTAL units. That's about 1 unit in every 150X150 meter grid at placement for me - a lot of ground for an infantry squad of 10 men to cover (1 man for 15 X 15 meters) or one AFV in 150X150. And let's remember 20 of my units are transports for the men.....

The AI is buying the expensive stuff like Matilda II and weighing in at 175 to 350 units in meeting engagements on the 80X80 map.

I guess I don't understand the map size versus unit numbers/quality statement? What is appropriate?

Are you saying I have to spread my 80 units out over a 120X120 map or bigger just so the AI will buy realistic quantities and types?

[DRG]

I finished that game you sent as an example and the next battle was a meeting engagement against the British in 4/41. The Brit AI had a force value of 4022 points and bought 123 units with that. Your force value is 3987 with 83 units. That's hardly unbalanced considering your force is largely "elite" now with experience in the 90-100 range and morale not far behind. Your facing troops with experience and morale in the 60's and 70's generally

Don

[DRG]

FYI the AI does not adjust it's purchase according to map size.

Don