New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)

[KraMax]

Weasel said:


That link gives me this:




И|©БMMTTш&#1096

etc. etc. etc, etc, etc


EDITED ---One line would have been sufficient you make your point

new link for archive:
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/obat011.zip

[KraMax]

Weasel said:
This OOB sounds very interesting but I am a bit concerned if it will totally mess up the game or if it is totally balanced. Just reading the posts on the B11 makes it sound like RR are going to be shooting down range 4000m! Since a HEAT round doesn't loose penetration over distance that would be a hell of a thing, who needs tanks?

Can the OOB be used without the pick lists if you never play against the AI?

Which version of the OOB is correct, the one on page 1? I noticed you made numerous changes so I want to make sure I check out the updated version.

No. B11 cannot shoot HEAT shells on a distance of 4000 metres. Load our OOB and you will see that there costs normal - a real distance.
We created our OOB - that it has shown real arms and structures of our armies. We have tried to make so that we OOB has not destroyed the majority of scenarios for this game. Scenarios are strongly connected with slots the weapon - and we have tried not to change a weapon site (by council DRG), but we had to clean all nonexistent weapon or shells (for example RPG-1). Also we have cleaned weapon duplicates. We have specified the exact given receipts of arms in our armies (when we had data about the beginning a batch production - we used these data). I ask to pay your attention that we not only improved our arms, but also worsened it is since we did it only because of real data. On all our changes in game at us is link and data (unfortunately basically in Russian). We also asked developers to include in game new icons our military technics, drawn PlasmaKrab, have given new photos of units.
Work on our OOB is not finished yet - now we search for the errors and discrepancies. We have spent set of tests with our OOB - and we can tell that it does not break balance of game.
As soon as at us will be more time - we will necessarily tell more about our changes, but many of these changes are obvious also you can see them if will download and will try our OOB.

Sorry for my bad English.

[DRG]

You do love to bring up the RPG-1 don't you ?

I have seen reports that Russia kept captured stocks of Panzerfausts available after the end of WW2 until the RPG-2 started to be produced. I personally did not add the "RPG-1 " to the Russian OOB but there IS info available about it. Russian troops were well known for using captured Panzerfausts during the war and it's not the least bit of a stretch to imagine they may have been kept around after the war as there were no other Infantry AT weapons of it's kind available.

If you Google "RPG-1" "Panzerfaust". you will find quite a number of hits

and you will find at --- http://www.battlefield.ru/cgi-bin/ik...=Print;f=2;t=6 quotes as .....

For example Zaloga, in his book "The Red Army of the Great Patriotic War 1941-5" (Osprey) says:
Quote

The Red Army captured large stocks of Panzerfaust on their advance west, and also began manufacturing a copy as the RPG-1

and it was on the strength of information like this that the "RPG-1" was added.

But here's an alternate opinion on the matter from the same message board

I know an American author who is researching this topic for an upcoming work. So far he has found no primary historical evidence that the RPG-1 was a Panzerfaust copy (of any model), nor any evidence that the Red Army manufactured the Panzerfaust under any name.

He believes that the Panzerfausts carried by Soviet soldiers in pictures are from captured stocks (the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division was also known to carry numbers of captured Panzerfausts). Furthermore he believes that the RPG-1 was wholly a Soviet design. It may have benefited from the study of captured Panzerfaust 150 and 250, but it was not a copy.

Here's a further quote on that line of thinking from http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-149364162.html

The Soviets were quick to grasp the potential of a simple, light, easily fired grenade launcher, and by 1944 were working on what was to become the RPG-1, whose 70mm rocket could defeat 150mm of RHA at an effective range of 75 meters, two and a half times that of the Panzerfaust. Due to difficulties with the fuse mechanism and the propellant charge in extreme seasonal climates, however, the RPG-1 was never produced in quantity, and once these issues were resolved the product improvements were applied to the RPG-2 (Figure 2), which entered Soviet service in 1949. The operation of the RPG-2 was easy for soldiers to learn, and its penetration of 200mm RHA and its effective range of 150 meters--twice that of the RPG-1--were significant improvements over its predecessor's performance. With its HEAT warhead and solid-propellant fuel, this was the first antitank weapon to be encountered in large numbers by U.S. forces during the Vietnam War.

"never produced in quantity" is quite a bit different than " nonexistent weapon or shells (for example RPG-1)"

Is it ?


So we have

A/ your idea that no RPG-1 ever existed
B/ the idea that the RPG-1 was simply the Panzerfaust renamed "RPG-1" and used because of the huge number of captured weapons available
C/ the idea that the RPG-1 was a wholly a Soviet design based on a study of captured panzerfausts but wasn't produced in quantity.

Given those choices we decided to go with options B (and/or C )as there was more evidence something called an "RPG-1" existed than not.

OK ? That's why there is an "RPG-1" in our OOB. If you don't like it, you can take it out as you have done but it's a little tiresome to have this repeatedly used and an example of why your OOB is so much more "accurate" because you don't include it.


Don

[KraMax]

There are no certificates that RPG-1 existed. RPG-1 was the experimental sample - works on its creation have ended in 1947-48 when was already ready RPG-2 which had more the best characteristics.
Also you will not find that any documentary proof that the Red Army used AFTER war - German panzerfaust or panzersrek.
Trophy panzerfaust and panzersrek - were transferred - to assault-engineering-sapernym parts of Red Army - during war 1944-45 and were used by them for carrying out of assault operations - for example, for destruction of well strengthened fire points of the opponent, storm of Berlin, etc.
AFTER war all trophy weapon was - is handed over on warehouses, the further destiny of this weapon to trace difficult.
I searched in Google - "RPG-1 grenade", "RPG-1", "Panzerfaust" - I have not found any information on that that RPG-1 there was on arms of Red Army, besides that this experimental weapon which was never produced in lots. Also I have not found the information on that that panzerfaust - were used by Red Army AFTER war.

p.s. I have resulted RPG-1 for an example, I can result for an example still the weapon from present OOB of which was not and was not present in USSR/Russia.

p.s.2. sorry for my bad English

[politruk]

Greetings!

Drg, really, we haven't got any info about RPG-1 at Soviet forces. For example, I saw only articles describes that RPG-1 were only at experimental, small consignment (as many, many weapons which we can't see at our game).

[narwan]

KraMax said:
AFTER war all trophy weapon was - is handed over on warehouses, the further destiny of this weapon to trace difficult.

Assuming that is what happened with the panzerfausts, did you stop to think about the role of these warehouses and depots? The standard one is to store equipment not needed in PEACE time. The game assumes there will be a war on, that's the whole point of the game. So it would be logical that weapons being held in storage would be used. And since no equivalent existed in the soviet armory until the RPG2 showed up, I'd say it is very likely that if the soviet union were to get involved in war during this period (which is what the game would model) these 'panzerfausts' would show up too.

KraMax said:
I searched in Google - "RPG-1 grenade", "RPG-1", "Panzerfaust" - I have not found any information on that that RPG-1 there was on arms of Red Army, besides that this experimental weapon which was never produced in lots. Also I have not found the information on that that panzerfaust - were used by Red Army AFTER war.

The same really applies here; if war broke out there a good chance the RPG1 would be rushed through production even if it didn't perform perfectly yet. Militairy history, especially ww2, is full of such examples. I'll name just the Panther and the T34, they turned out rather well after a short while...

So including something like the RPG1 in the game seems sensible and logical to me.

[DRG]

KraMax said:<snip>We have tried to make so that we OOB has not destroyed the majority of scenarios for this game. Scenarios are strongly connected with slots the weapon - and we have tried not to change a weapon site (by council DRG<snip>

Scenarios do not just refer to weapons data but also the units themselves and this MOD of the Russian OOB makes a complete mess of any scenario in the game that uses the Russian OOB in any way. The almost complete reorganization of the units means what is supposed to be a Mi-24 in a scenario now shows up as an IMR-3 or a BRDM-2 in a scenario has morphed into a PTS-M. I could list dozens , possibly hundreds, of units affected like this but I've got better things to do right now.

The bottom line is this OOB will destroy any scenario in the game that use the Russian OOB. We have already had one "bug" report from someone who couldn't figure out why the Russian scenarios in the game suddenly were a mess so anyone contemplating using this OOB should not be lulled into the false belief that this will not make a total mess out of the existing scenarios because it will. This is why we include " default" OOB's in the game.

Unfortunately we have no way to remind people they are not using the official OOB set when they try to play a scenario.

Don

[KraMax]

DRG said:

Scenarios do not just refer to weapons data but also the units themselves and this MOD of the Russian OOB makes a complete mess of any scenario in the game that uses the Russian OOB in any way. The almost complete reorganization of the units means what is supposed to be a Mi-24 in a scenario now shows up as an IMR-3 or a BRDM-2 in a scenario has morphed into a PTS-M. I could list dozens , possibly hundreds, of units affected like this but I've got better things to do right now.

The bottom line is this OOB will destroy any scenario in the game that use the Russian OOB. We have already had one "bug" report from someone who couldn't figure out why the Russian scenarios in the game suddenly were a mess so anyone contemplating using this OOB should not be lulled into the false belief that this will not make a total mess out of the existing scenarios because it will. This is why we include " default" OOB's in the game.

Unfortunately we have no way to remind people they are not using the official OOB set when they try to play a scenario.

Don

We will change our OOB and we will place our units as in original OOB.
Also we will change all our formations and picklists.

Dear DRG, we looked Russian picklists in game, and we think that it has become outdated. In him there are no many our armies, in him some our special armies or our military technics are not specified. Over it too it can be necessary to work? We would be ready to help with it.

[cbreedon]

DRG said:
The bottom line is this OOB will destroy any scenario in the game that use the Russian OOB. We have already had one "bug" report from someone who couldn't figure out why the Russian scenarios in the game suddenly were a mess so anyone contemplating using this OOB should not be lulled into the false belief that this will not make a total mess out of the existing scenarios because it will. Don

This was me... I have been playing this game since the 1990's and should have know what I had done without posting a query about it. I guess I had downloaded and installed this mod and had completely forgotten that I had done it. I do like the mod though.

[KraMax]

Dear DRG.

The big working out of set of an ammunition was made in the USSR in the mid 80th. For Nona - there is a set of shells, here their list:
Shells:
3VOF110
3VOF111
3VO34 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VO32 - cluster munition + HEAT-fighting elements
3VOF54
3VOF54-1
3VOF55
3VOF55-1
3VBK14
3OF49
3VOF49
3VOF51
3OF50
3BK19

Mines:
3VOF79
53-VOF-843B
3VOF68
3VOF53
3VOF69
3VOF57
3V34
3VS24
53-VD-843
3VD17
3VD16

+Any western shells 120mm

The information is received from the open sources, here one of them:
http://www.russarms.com/land/rva/tec...ona-s-base.asp

Here there is a discussion of these systems (these are sites of a military-air landing):
http://desantura.ru/forums/index.php? showtopic=3244&st=80
http://desantura.ru/forums/lofiversi...t2352-100.html

And here, the ORDER of the PRESIDENT of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION FROM MAY, 28TH, 1998 N 190-RP ABOUT PARTICIPATION of the RUSSIAN ORGANIZATIONS In the INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION of ARMS And the MILITARY TECHNICS "EUROSATORY ' 98":
http://infopravo.by.ru/fed1998/ch06/akt20362.shtm
Here it is written about these shells.

Best regards.