Countering Master Enslave...

[Atreidi]

OK, lets make up a scenario. Lets say you know an astral mage level 10 that's equiped with 20 astral gems is going to attack one of your provinces that is surrounded by sea. You also know that hes got a pretty big army and that he's got all the intentions of casting master enslave on one of your biggest army. What will you do?

It usually takes what 1 or 2 turns for the astral mage to cast the master enslave spell? That gives you only 1 or 2 turns to kill him before he does... That is not enough time even with flying units. Maybe if the astral mage was alone and you had flying units.... even then, he could cast it before he is dead...

I've sent a lonely astral mage to cast Master Enslave against a Huge army and converted most of them. and won the battle and gained 40+ units. OUCH.

[K]

Baalz said:

That's actually not true. Several nations get access to S4 mages (Marverni, Arcoscephale, R'yleh off the top of my head)

S4 + cap + coin + crystal shield + ring of sorcery = S8

Heck, even cheaper is to drop the ring and have a second mage carrying the light of the northern star - bonus he can cast vortex of returning after the master enslave if you want. Slap an eye of the void and rune smasher onto your main caster for +4 penetration. Drop those two where you expect an enemy army to move and they'll act first so no anti-magic and no retaliation at all. Yoink!

I've found that the AI gets very twitchy when casting spells with 200+ fatigue (50/50 of not casting). That being said, it tends to mean that only high astral or communions get the job done reliably.

But, you may have had a different experience. I'd be interested in other people's experience with this aspect of high fatigue spells.

[ano]

I made a thread once about my starspawn ignoring scripted Undead Mastery. I teleported 2 starspawns on a big Ermorian army aiming for casting UM and then Vortex of Returning. It went very well in test but in practice Death Starspawn just ignored the order and they both were successfully returned home with VoR. (Acting order was correct - I checked it many times) Next turn I repeated that trick and again had 8 astral games wasted as well as a turn of two good mages. After that I decided to stop trying

[MaxWilson]

Coldshard said:
So the primary, and just about only, defense against master enslave is to proactively and send spells and troops out to kill any opposing mage who can case the spell?

You've been given two other counters that don't involve killing the enemy mage:

1.) Master Enslave right back. He'll take your army (much of it), you'll take (much of) it back, along with his army (much of it). Hence, "He Who Master Enslaves Last, Master Enslaves Best."

2.) Use Anti-Magic/Army of Lead to protect your army. Will of the Fates might work here, I'm not really sure if luck helps against Enslave Mind but it might.

Or, you could use armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, e.g. hordes of undead chaff or magic beings like fairies or high-MR units.

-Max

[Coldshard]

MaxWilson said:

You've been given two other counters that don't involve killing the enemy mage:

1.) Master Enslave right back. He'll take your army (much of it), you'll take (much of) it back, along with his army (much of it). Hence, "He Who Master Enslaves Last, Master Enslaves Best."

2.) Use Anti-Magic/Army of Lead to protect your army. Will of the Fates might work here, I'm not really sure if luck helps against Enslave Mind but it might.

Or, you could use armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, e.g. hordes of undead chaff or magic beings like fairies or high-MR units.

-Max

I don't see how your response negates my 'primary, and just about only, defense against..'

Master enslaving back requires having master enslave setup. The right kind of caster, gems in place, and likely a lot of gear to push it along. There is also a chance that the caster you have set up to master enslave in return gets enslaved by the first one.. And then, of course, the enemy might be set up for multiple master enslave castings.

Is there a way to have antimagic or army of lead cast before defenders get a chance to cast spells? If not then it doesn't sound all that helpful, by the time they get put up it is already too late.

An entire army that isnt effected by it is nice, but not everyone has good access to that. Plus, those other units have their own set of limitations.. such as if the commanders controlling them get enslaved...

It is definitely a tough spell. I'm guessing it is just another bit that says the farther you get in the game the less focus there is on big armies.

[thejeff]

Well, in the classic Master Enslave contest, he who goes second has some serious issues to contend with.

First, the defender can cast AntiMagic/Army of Lead to protect both his troops and your former troops, greatly weakening the effect of your Master Enslave.

Second, since his new troops are among your remaining troops (and mages) many of your mages will be attacked or in hand-to-hand and thus less likely to cast what was ordered.
Do enslaved troops attack the round they're enslaved? I think they do.

This applies less if it takes a round or two to get communioned up to Master Enslave level. Though even a communion can do it round 1 with a Matrix and a late acting caster.

[Loren]

Just a question here:

If a caster can throw it on his own, what happens? My impression is that he will end up at 200 fatigue.

Also, the message before seems to say that the matrixes cast the spell on the mage's turn, not at the beginning of battle. Is that so?

Finally, what happens to the slave matrix if the bearer dies from fatigue? Will my other commanders pick them up?

[thejeff]

If a caster casts it without a communion (or a ridiculously high Astral level) he'll max out at 200 fatigue.

I believe the matrix casts at the beginning of the turn. Regardless, it is in effect when the mage casts.
I would just use a matrix for the master and have him act after the slaves, thus getting the full effect of the communion and being able to cast first turn. The slaves would cast Communion Slave normally. (Pythium communicants would also work). Then follow up with Vortex or Antimagic to prevent reprisals.

slave matrices should be treated like any other item when it's bearer dies. Commanders on the winning side have a chance to pick them up.

[Atreidi]

How do you you stop a raging astral mage that is master enslaving your armies after another?
What do you do when he already enslaves 2 big armies and hes stil advancing?
What do you do when you lost your strong mages?

[MaxWilson]

Coldshard said:
I don't see how your response negates my 'primary, and just about only, defense against... [Master Enslave is to proactively kill the mage casting it]'

You're going to have to do SOMETHING in response to Master Enslave, and if using immune armies and casting counterspells doesn't work for you I'm not sure what you were looking for. Proactively killing off enemy mages before they can cast is ALWAYS the best defense against any spell. You've dismissed the notion of using armies that aren't vulnerable to Master Enslave, and aren't happy with the idea of counterspells, so what does that leave?

Edit:Mage commanders will usually not be Master Enslaved, by the way. Most mages have MR 15-17, so they'll be resisting at 19-21 which is something like a 3-5% failure rate.

-Max