.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

The Falklands War: 1982- Save $9.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 3: The Awakening

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 20th, 2008, 11:35 AM

VedalkenBear VedalkenBear is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 465
Thanks: 10
Thanked 16 Times in 14 Posts
VedalkenBear is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

Mm. While I have great respect for Sinologists, I find that their information when they apply it to Japan seems to be... lacking. I say this because I was taught by a Russian Sinologist and also by Japanese nationals, and the differences were interesting, to say the least.

I don't necessarily believe that Shinto is 'syncretic by nature'. I believe that the Japanese are syncretic in their religious practices as a whole. If Shinto were inherently syncretic, why did the Nakatomi clan (whose purview was the Shinto system at the time of the Buddhist importation) fight tooth and nail to keep Buddhism out of Japan instead of incorporating it? They even assassinated entire wings of the fledgling Japanese state to do it. In part this was to ensure their own power base, but if Shinto were syncretic, then this battle would not have been necessary.

The Rome analog does not work, either. I do not argue that Japanese religious practice is very syncretic. I argue that it is impossible to know what purely Shinto (as opposed to amalgamated Shinto/Buddhist) beliefs existed at any point in Japanese history because by the time that we have written records on the matter, the religions are already side-by-side and some syncretism is taking place. This is not the case with Rome. We have written records for a far earlier period than in the case of the Japanese state, and I can only believe that the pagan Roman religion was syncretic.

However, one can also point to the syncretism in Rome's religion as a practical matter, as a byproduct of its expansion. Rome co-opted foreign deities to, in a sense, better assimilate its conquered peoples. An interesting point is that there is evidence in the Man'yoosyu that the Yamato state did the same _with the Shinto religion_ in its attempt to unify the different Japanese peoples. That is, Amaterasu was the 'clan god', if you will, of the Yamato clan, and so she is preeminent. Onnotengu, Susano-o, and the other Shinto kami were given important but subordinate positions to co-opt them into the state.

Again, though, the records we have seem to be after the activities in question finished. They postdate the actual effort, and seem to be an attempt to use the new technology of the written word to make the cooption permanent.

As for your sources, you yourself admit that most of them are operating somewhat out of their bailiwick. While I do not doubt that their insights can be quite useful, especially in a comparative sense between China and Japan, I have found that there is a temptation to view Japan through China's lens, which most Japanese historians deny is a valid approach in the general case. I do not believe that Japan is quite the 'unique snowflake' that some nationalistic Japanese historians make of it, but it is clearly not a mere knock-off of China that such an appropriation of methods can fully explain.

I wonder if KO has any insights into this, as it really falls under his area of expertise.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old August 20th, 2008, 01:35 AM
theenemy's Avatar

theenemy theenemy is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Next door...
Posts: 160
Thanks: 14
Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts
theenemy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

I still think it's kinda weird that the Deva can be chosen by Yomi. Especially since those demons are tough enough to take the Deva down. Oh well, I guess that people(and other creatures) worshipped anything during EA.
__________________
My life has the tendency to fall apart when I'm awake, you know?

Last edited by theenemy; August 20th, 2008 at 01:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old August 20th, 2008, 01:38 AM

konming konming is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 525
Thanks: 17
Thanked 17 Times in 10 Posts
konming is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

At least Marignon won't follow undead. They do follow demons however...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old August 20th, 2008, 02:46 AM
HoneyBadger's Avatar

HoneyBadger HoneyBadger is offline
General
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,445
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 51 Posts
HoneyBadger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

It's my (limited) understanding that Buddhist demons are actually the good guys-they just happen to look and act in ways that might be thought of as evil, but are infact intended to be instructive.
__________________
You've sailed off the edge of the map--here there be badgers!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old August 20th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Wrana's Avatar

Wrana Wrana is offline
Major
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 1,045
Thanks: 177
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
Wrana is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

(forum had eaten previous attempt, repeating in short)
Actually these terms can be somewhat misleading when we speak of Chinese mythology - spirits which are part of Celestial hierarchy fight not for "greater good", but to keep universal harmony and balance (not equal to "peace", of course). And those who "do good" can also become targets of their wrath - if they tilt the balance too much. And of course, term "demon" here has its origins in how early Jesuit missionaries/scientists described what they saw...
Considering Korea - it seems our thoughts run in similar way
(http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...716#post632716)...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old August 21st, 2008, 05:33 AM
theenemy's Avatar

theenemy theenemy is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Next door...
Posts: 160
Thanks: 14
Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts
theenemy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

If its possible, I would like to hear from KO himself why he chose to encorporate the Deva as a pretender for Yomi. There isn't any source better than the developers.
__________________
My life has the tendency to fall apart when I'm awake, you know?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 20th, 2008, 02:05 PM
HoneyBadger's Avatar

HoneyBadger HoneyBadger is offline
General
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,445
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 51 Posts
HoneyBadger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

The more I study China and (especially) Japan, the more I'm drawn to Korea. I wonder if we'll ever see a Korean themed nation? There are certainly enough interesting elements to make a compelling one.
__________________
You've sailed off the edge of the map--here there be badgers!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 21st, 2008, 11:48 AM
Kristoffer O's Avatar

Kristoffer O Kristoffer O is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 25
Thanked 92 Times in 43 Posts
Kristoffer O is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

> If its possible, I would like to hear from KO himself why he chose to encorporate the Deva as a pretender for Yomi. There isn't any source better than the developers.

Likely it was added to all eastern nations in one sweep.
__________________
www.illwinter.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 21st, 2008, 04:06 PM
HoneyBadger's Avatar

HoneyBadger HoneyBadger is offline
General
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,445
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 51 Posts
HoneyBadger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

Kristoffer, not to go too far OT, but will there be a way to mod-remove Pretenders from mod nations, like if you want to do all unique Pretenders for that particular mod?
__________________
You've sailed off the edge of the map--here there be badgers!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 22nd, 2008, 11:36 AM
Kristoffer O's Avatar

Kristoffer O Kristoffer O is offline
General
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,463
Thanks: 25
Thanked 92 Times in 43 Posts
Kristoffer O is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Not so thematic methinks

No idea. Post it in the suggestions in the mods forum so it can be added in the mods wishlist.
__________________
www.illwinter.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2026, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.