Stellar Manipulation Suggestion for 1.42

[Deathstalker]

Quote"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I second the motion to have a 'gravity well' device or somesuch that prevents wormholes from entering a specific system (and a device that does not take 20+ turns to build!!!!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd rather not see that happen! It will make WP openers totally worthless!
"

Simple to fix, just have a new Intelligence project added to destroy the 'gravity well' or whatever is keeping the wormhole from opening. Or find out from an 'ally' which planet the device is on and send a cloaked stealth ship to bomb it. The point I was trying to make is that there should be a 'counter' for every action. (or maybe the device should slow the wormhole opening, make it take 2 turns or something, give you warning....Or heck, how about just giving Stellar Tech wormhole devices different levels (I, II, III etc) and needing an 'upgraded' device to defend vs. each level (need device II to defend against a wormhole opener I or II but III still works))

Just some more food for thought......

[capnq]

quote:

---

Simple to fix, just have a new Intelligence project added to destroy the 'gravity well' or whatever is keeping the wormhole from opening.

---

Does that need a new project? I'd think there's already a facility destroying project in there some where. (I don't know for sure, because I've only ever researched past Intel 2 twice so far.)

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Rollo]

I disagree that Stellar Manipulation (WPO, Warp point opening) should be altered in any way.
SE IV prior to WPO could be compared to World War I. It is essentially a trench war. Everybody tries to defend choke points as good as possible. Sometimes the enemy gets through, sometimes not. You can always fall back or have additional lines of defense.
When WPO comes into play that all changes. Static defenses are useless, mobility is the key (WW II, tanks, Blitzkrieg). What's so bad about it? It's a great thing to break stalemates and deal out some serious (if not lethal) damage to your enemy. You have to adjust to that and make use of it, instead of thinking how to change it.

quote:

---

originally posted by Magus38:
This has bothered me for some time actually, I am surprised that it has not been as issue before as it is so obviously destructive to strategy. All you can do in such a situation is react.

---

If you find this so destructive to strategy, why don't you make it part of your strategy and disrupt your opponents plans?

Honestly, if can grow a healthy empire and wage war against your enemy with "conventional methods", while diverting some resources to develop and build WPO (not to mention another fleet to send through) then you have done well and deserve to win. Just don't put too much into stellar manipulation or your enemy will crush you before you ever opened one warp point . IMHO, this is one of the great aspects of the game. No need to change it. There doesn't have to be a counter measure (gravity well device) for everything in the game, let alone a counter measure against the counter measure (Intel project to destroy gravity device).

If both sides have the ability to do this and send a hundred base ships through. Well great, than we have nuclear war. No defenses, no survivors, mutual destruction assured, the end of all (Maybe, it's time to make peace and talk arms reduction? ).

Just my opinion,
Rollo

[Magus38]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rollo:
What's so bad about it? It's a great thing to break stalemates and deal out some serious (if not lethal) damage to your enemy. You have to adjust to that and make use of it, instead of thinking how to change it.

---

Why make the assumption from what I wrote that I like stalemates or entrenched positions? I am not arguing for the elimination of WP technology. The solution I would prefer is that of temporary instability. A good suggestion was offered a couple of Posts ago. It offered the idea that the WP move from very unstable to stable across a short series of turns, so that you could pass through it the turn of its' creation, but would incur serious risks to your fleet in doing so.

In any case, please understand my purpose. I like WP technology and I agree that it could move the game into another phase of warfare requiring greater reaction speed, better planning, etc. There is nothing "wrong with that", in fact there is everything right with that, again in theory. The problem, with the technology as it is currently implemented, is that I can show up with a fleet and glass and entire system relatively easily (I know having done it) and my opponent can do nothing but react after the fact. I'll go one step further... I can show up, glass an entire system and then leave, closing the new wormwhole after me. I am sorry but, as it stands now, how skilled a strategist you are becomes completely IRRELEVANT. No amount of adjustment in my thinking is going to alter that outcome because there simply is no way to prepare for this.

Where no preparation is possible, no strategy is possible.


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[CyC]

The strategy is the blizt blizt situation

Techniques of protecting yourself against WormHoles
1. get WormHole tech first and use it on them.
2. Use diplomatic threats and negotiations if multiple empires have Worm Hole tech get a truce saying that if an empire uses a Blitz tactic everyone else will Blitz them.
3. Keep multiple blitz stations yourself and keep them on the move, If someone tries to blitz you, You Blitz them back both where they come in and esecially where they came from since they would of sent most there defence to blitz you.
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
5. Massive amount of fighter and Planetary Bases in every system (this is really a Last resort and never works).
6. Keep all your ships togeather and moving and keep a Worm Hole creation ship (biggest posible) with your vessels at all times so you can be anywhere in a moments notice. Never Put a few ships at each planet ships are valuable yet useless by them selves.



------------------
CyC
L+++ GdY $!+ Fr+ C--- S* T!- Sf++ Tcp++ A? M++ MpM RV Pw+ Fq++ Nd+++++ Rp++ G

[DirectorTsaarx]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyC:
<snip>
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
<snip>

---

Actually, if you turn on the option "warp points can appear anywhere in system" at game setup, the player-created warp points also appear anywhere, not just on the edges.

So you'd be better off putting minefields on your planets. Besides, you could concentrate your forces better that way; spreading mines all around the edge of a system is a tad drastic.

------------------
L++ GdY $ Fr>Fr++ C++ SdS T-- Sf Tcp? A%% M- Mp! RTH!P Pw Fq-->Fq+ Nd>Nd+++++ Rp++ G+

[Magus38]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CyC:
The strategy is the blizt blizt situation

Techniques of protecting yourself against WormHoles
1. get WormHole tech first and use it on them.
2. Use diplomatic threats and negotiations if multiple empires have Worm Hole tech get a truce saying that if an empire uses a Blitz tactic everyone else will Blitz them.
3. Keep multiple blitz stations yourself and keep them on the move, If someone tries to blitz you, You Blitz them back both where they come in and esecially where they came from since they would of sent most there defence to blitz you.
4. In ultra important system (You should never have ultra important systems) place mines and storms in every sector around the edges of your systems in the directions of your enemies.(Worm holes always apear around the edges of your system)
5. Massive amount of fighter and Planetary Bases in every system (this is really a Last resort and never works).
6. Keep all your ships togeather and moving and keep a Worm Hole creation ship (biggest posible) with your vessels at all times so you can be anywhere in a moments notice. Never Put a few ships at each planet ships are valuable yet useless by them selves.

---

1) If you are playing in a 20 player game (something I prefer) than a huge chunk of the game is nothing more than a race for a single critical technology and then what? Declare war on everybody? The fact that a single tech is this critical clearly indicates a game balance problem.

2) This is possible. Something like the biological warfare / atrocity diplomatic concept. War has always been considered (rightly) as an extension of a nation's diplomacy. Historically, there have been attempts made to regulate the uncontrolled use of force for military purposes. What you are proposing is a variety of Geneva Convention on the use of Warp Point technology. This works as long as no one empire is significantly stronger than any other. Once a few empires get strong enough someone always gets impatient, blitzes massively, disabling several rivals quickly, then forces peace back down the other's throats. The others generally go the way of appeasement for fear of this happening to them and their neighbor's not having the balls to stand up and defend them as per the original accord.

In other words, this solution looks good on paper, but if the weapon is there to be used then eventually it will be.

3) This is not so much a strategy as it is a reaction. Mutual anihilation is certainly an option (though I wouldn't want to be a citizen in these empires), but it still does not prevent the WP first strike, nor does it render it any less of a massively destabilizing, must-have technology.

4) All strategies dealing with the placement of mines in order to combat the WP first strike capability are doomed to complete and utter failure simply because any human-led empire that has the technology to open warp points and send in a Blitzkreig fleet of significant size is going to be certain to have their fleet accompanied by a mine sweeper ship carrying enough mine sweepers to clean 100 mines from any given sector per turn (I usually go for 110 just in case as sometimes I have seen a few more that 100 per sector... this is slightly bugged but that is another thread...). This is not a viable defense strategy, rather it is an ultimately futile attempt to get around this badly implemented, strategy-nullifying feature.

Why strategy-nullifying? Because, as I said earlier, where no reasonable defensive preparation is possible, then no defensive strategy is possible. One can do nothing but "plan" to react after the fact.

5) As Cyc points out himself, this never works in practice.

6) This renders you capable of reaction, solely. See my response to point 3.

Please understand what I am arguing for and why. I am greatly in favour of surprise attacks. ALL thoughtfully prepared attacks ought to come as a surprise to the enemy. Moreover, Blitzkreig tactics are naturally a good idea, as once you commit to attacking someone you are more vulnerable to attack yourself. Waging a "lightning war" is, therefore, the best way to avoid war on multiple fronts.

My objection has been (and remains) that this technology should be altered so that the kind of preparation illustrated in CyC's 6th point could be effective as a defense strategy (I employ it myself) and not merely as a means of taking vengeance.

I think, the best solution to how WP technology could be rebalanced remains the instability delay I put forward in my original post, or CW's well thought out variation on that (see his post a few notches down).


[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 06 September 2001).]

[rdouglass]

The 'simple' answer IMHO is to use the game setup "All Warp Points Connected" (I think that's what its called) and disallow WP Manipulation in the Tech Setup section. Now you don't have to worry 'bout that problem.

The problem (or feature depending on your perspective) with this is you now have basically conventional-type warfare with different weapons. However, I do agree that the WP 'Rush' tactic is something to be concerned about.....

[geoschmo]

quote:

---

From current beta patch history.txt
5. Added - The System Gravitational Shield now prevents warp point opening within the system. This prevents warp point opening into or out of the system by all players (including you!).

---

Looks like someone sent this suggestion to Aaron, or he thought of it himself, cause it will be in the next patch.

Geoschmo

[BeeDee10]

Hooray! Finally, a defence is possible!

I suppose this does mean that it's possible for a player to seal himself off from the rest of the quadrant impregnably, by closing all warp points out of his grav-shielded systems and abandoning any colonies outside of that group to remove the possibility of intel. But since grav shield facilities cost a fortune and take forever to build, it's likely that this will only account for a small number of systems. If he ever decides to reopen the gates to the outside world again, he's likely to find that he's been left behind by the massive non-isolationist empires out there.