when should you build a new fortress?

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by fungalreason

I don't think you'll ever reduce the available resources as long as you don't build directly adjacent to the capital, if I understanding it correctly. (I'm assuming it hasn't changed since the manual was written).

Fortresses only draw resources from provinces directly adjacent to them, so if the two forts aren't right next to each other they don't have much effect. Manual explains it in detail.

I did it with MA Ulm, only recruiting Master Smiths and 10-gp heavy infantry in the early turns. On turn 2, I picked a direction that seemed to promise a good place for a fort and moved my starting army AND spy towards that direction. On turn 3, if it looked like I could tackle the independents of the second province (no knights, amazons, Knights of the Chalice etc), I again moved both my starting army and spy in there. On turn 4 the starting spy could usually start building a fort if I didn't recruit a Master Smith.

As I said, it's a bit of a challenge game. I did this with neutral Order and a non-SC pretender. It didn't ALWAYS work, especially if the independents around my capital were tough and restricted where I could expand. I was also so tight on money I couldn't recruit any independents, and had to alchemize few gems perhaps 50% of the time.

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

If it is to hold a choke point or defend an important magic site, then some nations are better off putting that 800 to 1200 gold into PD. Other nations, like late-age Man, have horrible PD but are excellent at defending castles.

Doesn't LA Man have one of the best PD forces in the game? I thought they get spear-and-shield infantry and longbows for PD under 20, and heavy infantry with crossbows for PD above 20.

[AreaOfEffect]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Doesn't LA Man have one of the best PD forces in the game? I thought they get spear-and-shield infantry and longbows for PD under 20, and heavy infantry with crossbows for PD above 20.

No. They do get spear and shield infantry, but they don't get longbowmen for the first 19. Instead they get millitia and slingers. The millitia have a moral of 8 and are as bad as millitia usually are. The slingers are even worse with a moral of 7. The book is slightly incorrect about what you get. It should read as follows:

Commander at def 1: Castellan
Units at def 1+: Spearmen, Millia, Slinger
Commander at def 20: Judge
Units at def 20+: Longbowmen, Tower Guard

Note: The tower guard you get is the version from MA Man, which is an inferior unit as it doesn't have a crossbow and uses a regular shield instead of the kite shield.

So, my point still stands. LA Man has terrible PD. They are better off using a castle instead.

[Gregstrom]

Hmm... you could start building a fort 2 provinces away from your capital on turn 5 - turn 4 if you went out blind on turn 1.

I guess beyond that the answer is 'yes - it will hurt resource generation in your capital'. But for races without high resource capital-only units (and ones you want/need to build, at that), it's not a big issue. The overall amount of resources you can put into troop production increases, after all.

[Zeldor]

Huh? After first year you have 15-25 provs, so plenty of space for new forts.

[Omnirizon]

I actually like to hold off until i'm into the second year to start building a second fort. But I'll then build two in quick succession so that I have three before turn 20.

All through the first year you will be able to exhaust your gold only recruiting a mage and as many troops as you can each turn, and you should. This will allow you to expand a little quicker. While I'm still in expansion phase I am unconcerned with spending gold on two mages a turn (not to mention a fort to allow that), and would rather spend as much on troops as possible. The extra expansion will pay-off in research shortly when you actually have the extra gold to recruit two mages and enough troops.

By the second year you will usually start having a little left over gold, especially if you recruit efficient (i.e. the best survivability to gold ratio) troops. Your empire will also be bigger and you will enter a spatial situation where you can benefit from recruiting closer to your front lines. With these two conditions it is time to start planning to build not just a second but a third fort; both almost concurrently. An additional bonus of this is that you will be able to choose prime real estate for your forts, rather than just whatever is available. For me, building a fort in the right place trumps the cost or build time, and is worth waiting for.

Maybe this is just my playing style and the nations I like to play (I hate nations too dependent on their capital, and like ones where the placement of additional forts can be very meaningful), but I find it is what works for me.

[vfb]

I've sometimes forgone an early second fort if I don't need it to build sacred or resource-expensive warriors, if I find a good site like a Library or Whispering Woods to recruit mages from instead.

And I don't like to build forts underwater without searching N1 first, but that can take a while with R'lyeh since N is rare on their mages.

[AreaOfEffect]

Again, it highly depends on the nation and the need.

If it is to hold a choke point or defend an important magic site, then some nations are better off putting that 800 to 1200 gold into PD. Other nations, like late-age Man, have horrible PD but are excellent at defending castles.

[Xietor]

When NOT to build a fort is just as important.

Never build a fort that you cannot defend. And never build a fort and leave it lightly defended. You can get away with lightly defending forts if you are an astral nation and have gateway researched, but it is a good practice to keep all forts well guarded. Nothing is worse than spending gold to build forts for your enemy.

And typically I hold off on building forts until i scout my neighbors and see if they are building forts I may want to take.

[Lingchih]

Ahhem, Endo. Yes you can do that. But it compromises building your circle of supporting provs for the capitol. I would never do that.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Lingchih

Ahhem, Endo. Yes you can do that. But it compromises building your circle of supporting provs for the capitol. I would never do that.

As I said, it was a bit of a challenge game. I'm sure many people would never play MA Ulm without a SC pretender and with neutral Order, or perhaps MA Ulm at all.

I still think it can be a nice thing to try if you don't know how early to start building a fort. In an actual game you won't do it like that, but you'll have a better understanding of what it takes to build the second fort.